Lambo Cui
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Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
No, it's not missing the point. The point is that you're trying to make an issue out of it, when it isn't. i.e. the number of fatalities where "tiong chias" are involved pale in comparison to the number of non-"tiong chia" related accidents. You bring up big wrecks, when it is clear that big wrecks involve big vehicles speeding every day, and the newspaper reports multiple fatalities all the time, yet you ignore the larger issue of speeding heavy vehicles and concentrate on the random "tiong chia" aggressive driver that gets himself or his passenger killed. That's selection and confirmation bias. You want fewer deaths, install speed limiters on heavy vehicles, limit number of hours on the road to prevent driver fatigue and subject the drivers to random drug tests.
You ignore the fact that more deaths are caused by negligence than speeding, by motorcyclists not knowing how to handle their vehicle, and a multitude of other reasons than "driver was speeding in a sports vehicle, likely modified". In the big scheme of things, it is miniscule. Data from various sources, local and overseas, prove it.
And I'm saying, that in itself is selection bias. You see "tiong chia" and it stays in your memory. What about the speeding bus that killed 12 people on the highway less than 2 months ago? Isn't it even worse? Innocent passengers did not expect to get killed whereas unwise driver took the risk and paid the price?
Simply put, the link between "stupid driving" and car model is a tenuous one. Fast cars allow people to get stupid faster, but that's about it. In fact I'm going to argue the inverse. SUVs make drivers more aggressive because they think they're invulnerable. If you ever get the chance to meet one of those unmarked police Volvo SUVs on escort duty you will see what I mean.
Shaun;596694 said:
missing the point IMO
the NSH bus example is besides the point.. please read thread
big accidents caused by one's own driving and no other vehicle (unless the other vehicle is the victim..as in the evo taxi driver case)
not buses hopping dividers, not trains, not t-boned by 18 wheeler, not meteors punching through the roof, not drunk drivers hitting cyclists, etc.
strangely my experience on the roads here has been quite pleasant.. almost never meet the horror taxis or tailgaters, etc. most common is just the clueless road hogger
No, it's not missing the point. The point is that you're trying to make an issue out of it, when it isn't. i.e. the number of fatalities where "tiong chias" are involved pale in comparison to the number of non-"tiong chia" related accidents. You bring up big wrecks, when it is clear that big wrecks involve big vehicles speeding every day, and the newspaper reports multiple fatalities all the time, yet you ignore the larger issue of speeding heavy vehicles and concentrate on the random "tiong chia" aggressive driver that gets himself or his passenger killed. That's selection and confirmation bias. You want fewer deaths, install speed limiters on heavy vehicles, limit number of hours on the road to prevent driver fatigue and subject the drivers to random drug tests.
You ignore the fact that more deaths are caused by negligence than speeding, by motorcyclists not knowing how to handle their vehicle, and a multitude of other reasons than "driver was speeding in a sports vehicle, likely modified". In the big scheme of things, it is miniscule. Data from various sources, local and overseas, prove it.
Shaun;596694 said:
And I'm saying, that in itself is selection bias. You see "tiong chia" and it stays in your memory. What about the speeding bus that killed 12 people on the highway less than 2 months ago? Isn't it even worse? Innocent passengers did not expect to get killed whereas unwise driver took the risk and paid the price?
Simply put, the link between "stupid driving" and car model is a tenuous one. Fast cars allow people to get stupid faster, but that's about it. In fact I'm going to argue the inverse. SUVs make drivers more aggressive because they think they're invulnerable. If you ever get the chance to meet one of those unmarked police Volvo SUVs on escort duty you will see what I mean.
Re: Lambo Cui
Who doesn't know this? Who ever said otherwise? By sheer volume, by distracted driving (as in the article that kelvin linked), I don't disagree. It is fact. Marklee asked why even bother with it since it is overshadowed by other factors. The simple answer is that because we're here on an enthusiast forum and from what I see happen in these circles, and what I hear about, I know it is an issue.
Per capita, more TC cars and drivers get into major crash damage / death than non TC cars and drivers. Simple. I don't care that there's another cause of death greater than either.
If I cared only about number of preventable deaths I would skip traffic accidents altogether and focus on lifestyle diseases, viruses, etc. which will way more people worldwide than traffic accidents.
I really don't think some of you have followed the thread properly to understand what was said.
Crufty Dusty;596724 said:
Who doesn't know this? Who ever said otherwise? By sheer volume, by distracted driving (as in the article that kelvin linked), I don't disagree. It is fact. Marklee asked why even bother with it since it is overshadowed by other factors. The simple answer is that because we're here on an enthusiast forum and from what I see happen in these circles, and what I hear about, I know it is an issue.
Per capita, more TC cars and drivers get into major crash damage / death than non TC cars and drivers. Simple. I don't care that there's another cause of death greater than either.
If I cared only about number of preventable deaths I would skip traffic accidents altogether and focus on lifestyle diseases, viruses, etc. which will way more people worldwide than traffic accidents.
I really don't think some of you have followed the thread properly to understand what was said.
pbear1973
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
Ya man... too bad the only FI system for the 320i is that Taiwanese crap that costs $10,000. Urgh. Heard from a reliable source also that one bro installed and his gasket started leaking.. and the ECU program they provided doesn't tune the engine properly.
ac323;596745 said:
Ya man... too bad the only FI system for the 320i is that Taiwanese crap that costs $10,000. Urgh. Heard from a reliable source also that one bro installed and his gasket started leaking.. and the ECU program they provided doesn't tune the engine properly.
Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
Proof? The insurance data shows that your conjecture is not true, that luxury models carry as much risk as sports models when everything is normalized.
Disagreeing doesn't mean I don't understand. Your conjecture is that "these are the 5 models that get in trouble all the time" but it's anecdotal evidence. Which doesn't make sense because as I pointed out earlier the Malaysian buses cause more deaths per capita (your metric) than the individual "tiong chia" car and drivers.
Malaysia's Notorious Interstate Express Buses - SkyscraperCity
In reference to an accident where 20 people were killed in 2007 ( the linked post is in 2008 ).
It's akin to saying combat aircraft like F16s and F18s and what-have-you are more dangerous as compared to airliners like Boeing and Airbus. Taking to the air is dangerous. Not everyone is going to fly about in a combat aircraft. Not everyone is going hot into a war zone in a war plane (risk linked to activity as pointed out earlier). I can name more famous people who have been killed while flying civilian than in combat aircraft.
Do I think driving stupid on public roads is irresponsible? Yes. I'll admit I've done it before and likely may do so in future too. I don't condone it nor do I think it's something to be proud of. But humans are unpredictable. A multitude of factors can easily provoke a normal, rational person into irresponsible and stupid acts.
Are sports cars or "TC" always faster than other cars while on the roads, on average? That should be your conjecture. My guess is no, but I welcome evidence to prove otherwise.
Shaun;596787 said:
Proof? The insurance data shows that your conjecture is not true, that luxury models carry as much risk as sports models when everything is normalized.
Shaun;596787 said:
Disagreeing doesn't mean I don't understand. Your conjecture is that "these are the 5 models that get in trouble all the time" but it's anecdotal evidence. Which doesn't make sense because as I pointed out earlier the Malaysian buses cause more deaths per capita (your metric) than the individual "tiong chia" car and drivers.
Malaysia's Notorious Interstate Express Buses - SkyscraperCity
In reference to an accident where 20 people were killed in 2007 ( the linked post is in 2008 ).
It's akin to saying combat aircraft like F16s and F18s and what-have-you are more dangerous as compared to airliners like Boeing and Airbus. Taking to the air is dangerous. Not everyone is going to fly about in a combat aircraft. Not everyone is going hot into a war zone in a war plane (risk linked to activity as pointed out earlier). I can name more famous people who have been killed while flying civilian than in combat aircraft.
Do I think driving stupid on public roads is irresponsible? Yes. I'll admit I've done it before and likely may do so in future too. I don't condone it nor do I think it's something to be proud of. But humans are unpredictable. A multitude of factors can easily provoke a normal, rational person into irresponsible and stupid acts.
Are sports cars or "TC" always faster than other cars while on the roads, on average? That should be your conjecture. My guess is no, but I welcome evidence to prove otherwise.
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Re: Lambo Cui
but we're talking big wrecks.. earlier asked whether the data shows 1 big wreck or 50 fender benders, you did not reply except with some local data (hopping over from US data) that also was inconclusive on categorization
all informal data points to yes though. Last night a friend of yours was over at my place scouring a local news for evidence to the contrary. Telling me he could find 5 nonTC big wrecks for every 1 TC wreck. In the end the ratio was not 5:1, but 2:3. If we had included the high profile cases that were no longer stored on the site, it would have been 1:4 in favour of nonTC cars being safer. Consider that the non TC population is so huge and yet there are more TC bigwrecks Reverse of what he was so sure of. We bet 50 bucks on it btw ...and I won this bet
If he's reading... to him
Crufty Dusty;596805 said:
but we're talking big wrecks.. earlier asked whether the data shows 1 big wreck or 50 fender benders, you did not reply except with some local data (hopping over from US data) that also was inconclusive on categorization
again, i don't care about buses, ships, trains, planes.. you keep missing that point
again, i don't care about buses, ships, trains, planes.. you keep missing that point
my guess is yes but there is no solid data..
all informal data points to yes though. Last night a friend of yours was over at my place scouring a local news for evidence to the contrary. Telling me he could find 5 nonTC big wrecks for every 1 TC wreck. In the end the ratio was not 5:1, but 2:3. If we had included the high profile cases that were no longer stored on the site, it would have been 1:4 in favour of nonTC cars being safer. Consider that the non TC population is so huge and yet there are more TC bigwrecks Reverse of what he was so sure of. We bet 50 bucks on it btw ...and I won this bet
If he's reading...
to him
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Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
Here it is again: selection bias. Flashy cars generate sales of newspapers so the news report it. Websites work the same way.
Look at this video.
Kid Nearly Flew Out of Window During Car Accident | TechieLobang - News, Tips & Tricks
Not a "major" wreck although it could have easily been ugly, but the car involved was a "sports" model. Whose fault is it? There are literally hundreds of these cases and you only see the car, but don't have the data to conclude who is at fault or the causes of the accident. People only see the "sports model" in a yard and think "another racer-wannabe almost got himself killed" and take pictures of it.
Statistically, a sample population of cars should follow a normal (Gaussian) distribution. In other words, in a random sample there should be a proportionate number of speeders in all vehicle types relative to their category. How many people have been caught driving at unlawful speeds in non-TC cars? The answer is "more than drivers of TC cars". Similarly, there will be more people killed in "big wrecks" or not, in non-TC cars than in TC cars. It really is that simple.
No data and he gave up $50? He should have kept his money.Shaun;596862 said:all informal data points to yes though. Last night a friend of yours was over at my place scouring a local news for evidence to the contrary. Telling me he could find 5 nonTC big wrecks for every 1 TC wreck. In the end the ratio was not 5:1, but 2:3. If we had included the high profile cases that were no longer stored on the site, it would have been 1:4 in favour of nonTC cars being safer. Consider that the non TC population is so huge and yet there are more TC bigwrecks Reverse of what he was so sure of. We bet 50 bucks on it btw ...and I won this bet
Here it is again: selection bias. Flashy cars generate sales of newspapers so the news report it. Websites work the same way.
Look at this video.
Kid Nearly Flew Out of Window During Car Accident | TechieLobang - News, Tips & Tricks
Not a "major" wreck although it could have easily been ugly, but the car involved was a "sports" model. Whose fault is it? There are literally hundreds of these cases and you only see the car, but don't have the data to conclude who is at fault or the causes of the accident. People only see the "sports model" in a yard and think "another racer-wannabe almost got himself killed" and take pictures of it.
Statistically, a sample population of cars should follow a normal (Gaussian) distribution. In other words, in a random sample there should be a proportionate number of speeders in all vehicle types relative to their category. How many people have been caught driving at unlawful speeds in non-TC cars? The answer is "more than drivers of TC cars". Similarly, there will be more people killed in "big wrecks" or not, in non-TC cars than in TC cars. It really is that simple.
Re: Lambo Cui
got any proof?
the latest evo report shows lack of bias (car model not known, not mentioned), as do many other reports locally covering non TC stuff. people are bored and any big crash is interesting to them. takes nothing for them to raise their phone and take a pic, write two sentences and upload it
why do you keep repeating the obvious? of course cos the nonTC population is huge. we're talking big wrecks in cars (not buses) per capita and you have no proof at all
I don't have complete proof, but the little time and attention I've put into it shows things clearly enough heheh
Okok.. not happy tonight we settle it!
Also the clip you linked proves that hairdressers do in fact speed like maniacs hahhah jkjk
But seriously the cases I look at are solo recklessness.. not ones like this. When we were going through samples last night we made sure of it
PS I like your TC.. I think it's cool and quick
got any proof?
the latest evo report shows lack of bias (car model not known, not mentioned), as do many other reports locally covering non TC stuff. people are bored and any big crash is interesting to them. takes nothing for them to raise their phone and take a pic, write two sentences and upload it
why do you keep repeating the obvious? of course cos the nonTC population is huge. we're talking big wrecks in cars (not buses) per capita and you have no proof at all
I don't have complete proof, but the little time and attention I've put into it shows things clearly enough heheh
Okok.. not happy tonight we settle it!
Also the clip you linked proves that hairdressers do in fact speed like maniacs hahhah jkjk
But seriously the cases I look at are solo recklessness.. not ones like this. When we were going through samples last night we made sure of it
PS I like your TC.. I think it's cool and quick
Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
This is exactly what I mean by selection bias. If I were to go to Google Image Search and look for "Ferrari crash" I would think 80% of the cars are already written off.
Car crash leaves one dead, 3 injured; driver arrested - Singapore News - XinMSN News
[Stomp] Wrecked car in Tampines mystery accident - VRForums - Singapore IT & Lifestyle Community!
YouTube - Picture montage of Loyang Ave crash!
Man killed in four-car crash
Lots more, I remember in KL there was a crazed Mercedes Benz driver a couple or so years ago who killed a few people near Bukit Bintang. And along Changi Coastal Road another Vios had a head-on crash with one of the delivery trucks. Driver died, needless to say. Or what about the woman in the BMW that crashed and burned in LCK maybe 5 years ago?
Because it doesn't seem you understand what I'm stating.
Fact #1: Speeding is not the leading cause of fatalities. It is a contributing factor, but not even in the top 3.
Fact #2: There are more non-TC than TCs. Vastly more so.
Given these propositions, the syllogism states that there are fewer fatalities from TC-related accidents than from non-TC-related accidents. Saying "I found 1M articles about TCs getting into big wrecks and thus TCs cause big wrecks" is totally non-sequitur. Because big vehicles cause big wrecks, while single-vehicle big wrecks caused by "speeding" are vanishingly small taken in totality. On top of that there's the selection bias. Are you sure you want to read about the crazed Lada that crashed? Or that stupid millionaire sending his brand-new Veyron into the ditch?
Shaun;596918 said:
This is exactly what I mean by selection bias. If I were to go to Google Image Search and look for "Ferrari crash" I would think 80% of the cars are already written off.
Car crash leaves one dead, 3 injured; driver arrested - Singapore News - XinMSN News
[Stomp] Wrecked car in Tampines mystery accident - VRForums - Singapore IT & Lifestyle Community!
YouTube - Picture montage of Loyang Ave crash!
Man killed in four-car crash
Lots more, I remember in KL there was a crazed Mercedes Benz driver a couple or so years ago who killed a few people near Bukit Bintang. And along Changi Coastal Road another Vios had a head-on crash with one of the delivery trucks. Driver died, needless to say. Or what about the woman in the BMW that crashed and burned in LCK maybe 5 years ago?
Shaun;596918 said:
Because it doesn't seem you understand what I'm stating.
Fact #1: Speeding is not the leading cause of fatalities. It is a contributing factor, but not even in the top 3.
Fact #2: There are more non-TC than TCs. Vastly more so.
Given these propositions, the syllogism states that there are fewer fatalities from TC-related accidents than from non-TC-related accidents. Saying "I found 1M articles about TCs getting into big wrecks and thus TCs cause big wrecks" is totally non-sequitur. Because big vehicles cause big wrecks, while single-vehicle big wrecks caused by "speeding" are vanishingly small taken in totality. On top of that there's the selection bias. Are you sure you want to read about the crazed Lada that crashed? Or that stupid millionaire sending his brand-new Veyron into the ditch?
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Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
More for your macabre enjoyment
Students killed in Kampar car-lorry crash
Taking illegal U-turn on highway a costly mistake for three friends
William Ting: Horror accident at Lutong Junction (photos added)
UiTM student killed in five-vehicle crash
Five in family die in tragic collision with army truck
Datuk Hazam JSJK Died in Road Accident
CEO Air Fadhilat, Suhaimi Ghazali and 5 Family Members Died in Fiery Road Accident
Disturbing Crashed Black Toyota Vios 2009 Photos
Palma Tree Crashed Toyota Vios at Putrajaya
Need I go on? How about that $50?
More for your macabre enjoyment
Students killed in Kampar car-lorry crash
Taking illegal U-turn on highway a costly mistake for three friends
William Ting: Horror accident at Lutong Junction (photos added)
UiTM student killed in five-vehicle crash
Five in family die in tragic collision with army truck
Datuk Hazam JSJK Died in Road Accident
CEO Air Fadhilat, Suhaimi Ghazali and 5 Family Members Died in Fiery Road Accident
Disturbing Crashed Black Toyota Vios 2009 Photos
Palma Tree Crashed Toyota Vios at Putrajaya
Need I go on? How about that $50?
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Re: Lambo Cui
man oh man...still stating the obvious and ignoring what's already been said and what you have not come back on
also.. what's the word.. straw man? hahah
i've seen those crashes and they do nothing to disprove what I've been talking about the whole time
you keep arguing what I've said clearly i'm not arguing against
your examples of selection bias are not valid.. look around for how many nonTC get covered! People simply will cover any crash bad enough or one that has inconvenienced them (traffic jams, etc. ) enough. All you gotta do is count all the nonTC vs TC and the total populations of each and figure out per capita Go ahead and do it man...
man oh man...still stating the obvious and ignoring what's already been said and what you have not come back on
also.. what's the word.. straw man? hahah
i've seen those crashes and they do nothing to disprove what I've been talking about the whole time
you keep arguing what I've said clearly i'm not arguing against
your examples of selection bias are not valid.. look around for how many nonTC get covered! People simply will cover any crash bad enough or one that has inconvenienced them (traffic jams, etc. ) enough. All you gotta do is count all the nonTC vs TC and the total populations of each and figure out per capita
Go ahead and do it man...
Re: Lambo Cui
notice how you keep referring to the US, China, Malaysia? Back to the same question I asked many posts ago.. how are they different from SG? Are cars much more utility or luxury? How long are average commutes or trips? How good are the roads, laws and how well are they enforced?
you can keep on searching outside of the context which was clearly defined in this thread.. i like your google skills hahah
notice how you keep referring to the US, China, Malaysia?
Back to the same question I asked many posts ago.. how are they different from SG? Are cars much more utility or luxury? How long are average commutes or trips? How good are the roads, laws and how well are they enforced? you can keep on searching outside of the context which was clearly defined in this thread.. i like your google skills hahah
Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
Dude, can 9 women produce a baby in 1 month? That's what you're asking.
Dude, can 9 women produce a baby in 1 month? That's what you're asking.
Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
What I assume you mean by "per capita" is number of "big wrecks" divided by number of vehicles for that particular model. Which IS a strawman, for the simple fact that sports models are limited in number, tend to cost more and are typically used for "spirited driving" or even racing in sanctioned events. That is the very definition of bias. Otherwise, a large number of your friends should be dead by now. Isn't it? How many of your friends drive TCs? How many people on this very forum drive a car that can be considered "TC" or capable of being made fast and driven aggressively? How is it that so many M car owners are still alive? Or Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Maserati etc owners for that matter?
So an Evo driver got himself killed. You take that one specific example and tar all owners with the same brush. Is that sensible? "Spirited driving" as an activity is linked to risk, but as I said earlier, that's dumb because the risk profile should be based on the driver. i.e. if my 65 year old father drives my car he's not going to be an outlaw when picking up groceries 2 streets away (at least I hope not). So, really, it is an ill-posed question. It's the same argument about violent video games. Do aggressive children buy violent video games, or do violent video games produce aggressive children?
What I assume you mean by "per capita" is number of "big wrecks" divided by number of vehicles for that particular model. Which IS a strawman, for the simple fact that sports models are limited in number, tend to cost more and are typically used for "spirited driving" or even racing in sanctioned events. That is the very definition of bias. Otherwise, a large number of your friends should be dead by now. Isn't it? How many of your friends drive TCs? How many people on this very forum drive a car that can be considered "TC" or capable of being made fast and driven aggressively? How is it that so many M car owners are still alive? Or Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Maserati etc owners for that matter?
So an Evo driver got himself killed. You take that one specific example and tar all owners with the same brush. Is that sensible? "Spirited driving" as an activity is linked to risk, but as I said earlier, that's dumb because the risk profile should be based on the driver. i.e. if my 65 year old father drives my car he's not going to be an outlaw when picking up groceries 2 streets away (at least I hope not). So, really, it is an ill-posed question. It's the same argument about violent video games. Do aggressive children buy violent video games, or do violent video games produce aggressive children?
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pbear1973
Well-Known Member
Re: Lambo Cui
Speaking of prejudices, check out this article:
Revoke road bully's licence
Particularly the line:
"Most of those driving luxury cars don't seem to care about other road users.
I have seen them driving across two lanes, chatting on the phone, and jamming their brakes even when the car in front of them is way ahead."
Well I drive a luxury car and do none of the above. Sure I tend to drive a little fast, but I signal early, accelerate to cut in so that there's enough clearance, or slow down and cut in behind if I don't have space to accelerate, I use the hands-free when I'm "chatting on the phone", and I stick to my lane - made particularly easy by bimmer's excellent handling and road holding.
While I've seen many idiots in luxury cars (just like I see many idiots in Vios and Hyundai Avantes), it's not "most" of them.
Speaking of prejudices, check out this article:
Revoke road bully's licence
Particularly the line:
"Most of those driving luxury cars don't seem to care about other road users.
I have seen them driving across two lanes, chatting on the phone, and jamming their brakes even when the car in front of them is way ahead."
Well I drive a luxury car and do none of the above. Sure I tend to drive a little fast, but I signal early, accelerate to cut in so that there's enough clearance, or slow down and cut in behind if I don't have space to accelerate, I use the hands-free when I'm "chatting on the phone", and I stick to my lane - made particularly easy by bimmer's excellent handling and road holding.
While I've seen many idiots in luxury cars (just like I see many idiots in Vios and Hyundai Avantes), it's not "most" of them.
Crufty Dusty;596978 said:
Re: Lambo Cui
Please don't include racing in sanctioned events.. we're talking public roads here. This should be very clear by now.
Sports driving sure.. but how is that related to big wrecking on city roads? SG cars have gone off into the long grass on the outskirts of SG and B roads up north.. no major damage.. just gotta get pulled out of the grass. I wouldn't even count those as big wrecks. Those I'd consider slips while spirited driving. Still not very responsible, but less bad than the city stuff.
No bias Just what I see, what I hear directly from people themselves, etc.
But seriously, they almost entirely do that. I'm not their keeper though and they are free agents, so what they do is their business and they know I disapprove of anything outside of tracks or closed off courses.
Maybe we'll just agree to disagree? My fingers are developing muscles I tell you!
Okok get well soon...
Crufty Dusty;596978 said:
Please don't include racing in sanctioned events.. we're talking public roads here. This should be very clear by now.
Sports driving sure.. but how is that related to big wrecking on city roads? SG cars have gone off into the long grass on the outskirts of SG and B roads up north.. no major damage.. just gotta get pulled out of the grass. I wouldn't even count those as big wrecks. Those I'd consider slips while spirited driving. Still not very responsible, but less bad than the city stuff.
No bias
Just what I see, what I hear directly from people themselves, etc. My friends all save it for the car tracks and kart tracks
But seriously, they almost entirely do that. I'm not their keeper though and they are free agents, so what they do is their business and they know I disapprove of anything outside of tracks or closed off courses.
The ones who are still alive are the disciplined ones, or the boulevard cruisers, or the lucky ones who have had close shaves serious enough to scare them into behaving better. Or they are ones to which the odds haven't caught up with yet. Never say never...
Brother... I'm not taking this single example and taring all evo owners with the same brush. Please read the thread again. I mentioned Hondas, Protons, BMWs, Subarus, as well. Please don't take it personally. I could list another 10 marques if it would make everyone feel better.
Maybe we'll just agree to disagree? My fingers are developing muscles I tell you!
Okok get well soon...
