Wideband O2 Sensors

Shaun

Well-Known Member
Trusted Sponsor
what you using it for?
 
Racebred said:
wow this is good and cheap! msn me when you come online

OT a bit. Have you found out where we can get methanol and ethyl. Checked the yellow pages but found nothing.
 
gabey said:
Racebred said:
wow this is good and cheap! msn me when you come online

OT a bit. Have you found out where we can get methanol and ethyl. Checked the yellow pages but found nothing.

You want this for what purpose? and what quantity?
 
For what application and based on what data/symptoms? I hope not stock NA. 117 RON would be overkill and that is the lower than MON or PON. Proceed with caution. Fuel reacts differently to different aromatics based on how it was created (cracking, distillation, etc). Also, the different aromatics have different effects on start up, egt, burn speed, etc. Octane rating has nothing to do with burn speed but it is the general trend that higher octanes burn slower. Overkill might reduce power.

Race fuel ECU programmes always specify to use an officially rated octane gas, though many have had success with toluene - though there may have been potentially non-optimal or harmful side effects that pass by undetected because of an incomplete diagnostics array or process. I would only use home brew stuff for limited duration and in minimum aromatic concentration to stave off detonation. Finding minimum mix requires reading OBD.
 
you're right. but i think we just want to mix one tank try try. i wont be too reliant on it.
 
Shaun said:
For what application and based on what data/symptoms? I hope not stock NA. 117 RON would be overkill and that is the lower than MON or PON. Proceed with caution. Fuel reacts differently to different aromatics based on how it was created (cracking, distillation, etc). Also, the different aromatics have different effects on start up, egt, burn speed, etc. Octane rating has nothing to do with burn speed but it is the general trend that higher octanes burn slower. Overkill might reduce power.

Race fuel ECU programmes always specify to use an officially rated octane gas, though many have had success with toluene - though there may have been potentially non-optimal or harmful side effects that pass by undetected because of an incomplete diagnostics array or process. I would only use home brew stuff for limited duration and in minimum aromatic concentration to stave off detonation. Finding minimum mix requires reading OBD.

Toluene is a solvent rite? Is it combustible? But I know toluene has very low conductivity (1x10 to the power of -17) and being non-conductive it will generate positive charge(static buildup) when molecules rub against each other.
Is it safe??
 
So far all I've heard is that it damages the stock fuel system seals, lines, etc. if used long term and in enough concentration. I've a friend developing a pure toluene injection system as a secondary injection system. The tough part is finding pumps, lines, injectors that are built to run it in full concentration with no ill effects.

I don't think it is about to burst into flames because it builds static. I might be wrong though.. dunno chemistry very well.
 
Shaun said:
I don't think it is about to burst into flames because it builds static. I might be wrong though.. dunno chemistry very well.

If given enough vapor space and the charge is so high (if not grounded), it will strike to the nearest ground area. When this happens, its like a lightning bolt.

I have seen this in my customer's plant. Very nice, like fire works.

So how does toluene increase power?
 
Defi has an AFR gauge that taps into your stock o2 sensor.

What are the pros and cons of a narrowband and wideband o2 sensor?

in other words, is it worth it to spend about $300+ on a defi gauge running off your stock sensor, or to spend more money, maybe double or triple, on a wideband o2 sensor with display?
 
MRacer77 said:
I guess it must be like ethanol since it makes more power too...


Q: Why do you think toluene is better than other types of octane boosters?

A: Several reasons:

Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.

Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.

Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.

Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.

Here is the link to know more about Rocket fuel. They give you the formula too! http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
 
Racebred said:
Defi has an AFR gauge that taps into your stock o2 sensor.

What are the pros and cons of a narrowband and wideband o2 sensor?

in other words, is it worth it to spend about $300+ on a defi gauge running off your stock sensor, or to spend more money, maybe double or triple, on a wideband o2 sensor with display?

The narrow band sensors was designed to achieve a stoichiometric (14.7:1) mixture under closed loop conditions, as this is the point where optimum catalytic converter efficiency is achieved. There are ways to guess your actual air/fuel ratio (AFR), but there is only one tool which can give you exact values. That tool is the wide band oxygen sensor. The wide-band sensor expands on the principle of the two-state sensor narrow band function by incorporating a second chamber, the pump cell. The Wide Band Sensors are used in the pre catalyst position in the exhaust stream. They look similar to the Oxygen sensors that you have been accustomed to, however there are some differences.

Read more here http://www.gmtcny.com/WBO2S.htm
 
Racebred said:
Defi has an AFR gauge that taps into your stock o2 sensor.

What are the pros and cons of a narrowband and wideband o2 sensor?

in other words, is it worth it to spend about $300+ on a defi gauge running off your stock sensor, or to spend more money, maybe double or triple, on a wideband o2 sensor with display?

some stock sensors are actually wideband and can be used with the right system. I don't have the specifics so you will have to get the part number and check on it and compatability to the Defi unit.

Wideband measures often from 10-20:1. Narrowband only is accurate around 13-15:1 or something like that. Very roughly. The exact specifics I don't recall right now but I am sure I am close on the numbers.
 
Whisky_Tango said:
If given enough vapor space and the charge is so high (if not grounded), it will strike to the nearest ground area. When this happens, its like a lightning bolt.

Is it easy to ensure that it is grounded?

I have seen this in my customer's plant. Very nice, like fire works.

Wah.. I don't want to die in a burst of fireworks and fuel leh :)

So how does toluene increase power?

It does not. It increases the knock resistance of the fuel and allows more ignition advance, more boost, more compression, higher chamber temperatures. One, or more of these, in combination.

If there was knock before and ignition timing was retarded, power will be recovered. Else, there will be no power gain till the car is tuned to be more aggressive in terms of factors listed above.
 
Back
Top