Thread Ethics

[michaeltan]

Re: Thread Ethics

Dear guys,

If we look at the IS250 thread, many of us tried to provide objective arguments to refute what certain individuals try to sell us, but sometimes it is met with silly remarks.... like pitting a 323 versus a IS 250, and how the IS would trounce the 323 etc etc... If you were a 323 owner, you would be upset too.. ( for the record, i dont drive a 323)

Just a clarification: if pitting a 323 against a IS250, given the similar price bracket, would it not be sensible? And the trouncing fully justified and a great incentive for PML to lower their margins and negotiate harder with Munich? And for the few upset owners to demonstrate how upset they are and food for thought for would be owners?

I am one of the mods in the Carma online forum, and regardless of what the other mods are doing, I adopt a policy of very free flowing discussions and try to back it up with fact. It's quite merciless by the way, but however upset the owner is, either he counter with fact, or if he cannot counter, he'd learn the truth.

 

[Xbox360]

Re: Thread Ethics

Hi michaeltan,

No offense. Really wonder what you are doing will really make PML lower the price or getting people to buy more lexus instead.... you do sound like someone that appeared once a while in the forum who sounds like selling lexus agressively here ...

Read your posting in carma.... think you are too biased towards a certain direction.

This forum has been more helpful with more objective views and nice tips to potential car owners and current car owners. I really appreciate the unbiased views of the forummers as well as the moderators in this site.

Like you said, comparing just based on price alone, Lexus wins without any doubts. There are also buyers who think that based on price alone, Mark X wins without any doubts ($89K vs $125K is no brainer for some people as well though). But with the badge Lexus carries, it creates a premium on top of the Mark X. Same goes to BMW, the badge and the driving experience counts on top of the price diferences.

So I don't see how it benefits the forummers here even if you managed to "trouncing" or winning your discussion. Buyers still buy Lexus over Mark X for their own reasons. Buyers still buy BMW over Lexus for their own reasons. PML still charges a premium.:woowooo:

 

[Evo9]

Re: Thread Ethics

And if more and more unbiased reviews appearing in newspapers and magazines alike, continue to show the E90 being 'trounced' by the IS250, do we continue to resort to censure and pretend that there is no such thing as a better car than the BMW? Ignorance is bliss after all. But ignoring a fact that is becoming a globally accepted reality borders along imaturity of thought, IMHO.

We will all then be living inside our own cocoons, having spent a couple of hundred grand on our BMW cars (that are not even made in Germany any more), but still not realizing, nor even accepting the fact that the Japanese have finally caught up, or even surpassed the standards that had been set by BMW in the years gone by, to produce what is now to be, the best medium executive sports sedan.

And it won't just be the IS250. It is only the beginning of the Japanese onslaught.

In F1, the Hondas and Toyotas are slowly, but surely displacing Ferrari, Mercedes and BMW from the podium stands. Renault may still remain there for a while more.

In WRC, the Evo9 and WRXs have pushed away all except perhaps Citroen (with C.Loeb still around), but dfinitely Peugeot and Renault.

In the Dakkar X-country, the Mit Pajeros reign supreme for the longest time.

In the British BTTC 2005, the Honda Integras and Civics have displaced most of the Euro marques (including the Alfas, BMW, VW and Volvos) out of the races, with the exception of the Vauxhall Astra.

And perhaps the next bastion for the Japanese will be Le Manns, where toppling Audi and Mercedes will be their next milestone.

How long more? Let's not kid ourselves with our African or Thai-made cars.
It is only a matter of time before Japanese reliability and ingenuity in engine design / R&D catches up with anything the Europeans can produce, the Germans notwithstanding.

 

[Xbox360]

Re: Thread Ethics

Hi Evo9,

I guess you have mistaken what was discussed.

I believe all of us are smart buyers who compare every factors before we buy cars, or properties, or anything esle. All of us look for "unbiased" reviews to add up our own research and butt experience when test driving the car before making decision. These "unbiased" reviews are also separated into 2 camps, one supporting IS while the other "unbiased" reviewer supporting BMW being a better car. So which camp is more ignorant will depend on the reader I suppose.

We all know how good is Lexus and all the other Japanese car manufacturers like Hondas, Subarus, etc. And who knows, another couple of years, we will probably see Korea Cars comparing BMW, Mercs, or even Porsche.

By the way, I am also concerned with where the cars will be made in the future. Who knows Lexus will make their next model in our neighbouring countries as well along with Toyota's hot-selling Altis which is no longer made in japan?

So back to our discussion on Thread Ethics.... and not which car best. I think all the moderators are doing a great job here and thanks to all the forummers here to provide unbiased "user-experience" review and tips to maintain and enhance our cars! Kudos!

 

[Shaun]

Re: Thread Ethics

And race cars have little to nothing to do with road cars.

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Thread Ethics

haha.. and i serously doubt local mags and newspapers are unbiased... juz my general feeling
but again la, let the buyers and drivers themselves decide....

The only unbiased mags i feel are those like EVO

 

[Ahbengdriver]

Re: Thread Ethics

And race cars have little to nothing to do with road cars.

I agree. whatever car maker he drives for, for F Alonso, given his current form, will be on the podium. We are driving street cars not formula one cars :screwedu:

 

[Ahbengdriver]

Re: Thread Ethics

haha.. and i serously doubt local mags and newspapers are unbiased... juz my general feeling
but again la, let the buyers and drivers themselves decide....

The only unbiased mags i feel are those like EVO

Its only human. i know someone who is currently writing for the straits times papers. I shall not say which section he writes but he does write very often. He has been approached by commercial firms to make positive recommendations, which he had so far not accepted the offer. By crediting these products, a 'small incentive' is given in return.... if he accepts.

So why not....

 

[Evo9]

Re: Thread Ethics

And race cars have little to nothing to do with road cars.

WRC uses souped up versions of production cars. There is a requirement that any car represented in the WRC must have a minimum commercial production number. Only the engines used are much more powerful for the actual WRC.

The Dakkar races and BTTC used similar-engined road cars, with some mechanical enhancements. BTTC has a engine capacity limit of 2,000 cc. Thus it invites team and independent representations of road-going cars in the likes of the Alfa 156, BMW 320i, VW Jetta, Volvo S60, the Civic Type R and Integra. All road-going cars.

 

[Evo9]

Re: Thread Ethics

I agree. whatever car maker he drives for, for F Alonso, given his current form, will be on the podium. We are driving street cars not formula one cars :screwedu:

Who's talking only about F1 cars?

I can bet you that Alonso driving a BMW will not even make it to the podium.
Its the pace of the Renault and the determination / stamina ... and courage of the driver that makes Alonso top of the heap in F1.

Give Raikonnen the Renault and he will do the same. Perhaps even with a Honda.
Mercedes engines blow out once too many times already. Poor chap.

 

[Orh LuLu]

Re: Thread Ethics

can ur guys look at the topic.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Thread Ethics

WRC uses souped up versions of production cars.

With next to nothing to do with the production cars. Go ahead and tell me what production components they use.

There is a requirement that any car represented in the WRC must have a minimum commercial production number. Only the engines used are much more powerful for the actual WRC.

Min production number has nothing to do with components used in actual race car. Engine power is not substantially more than production. They air run restrictors which force power production at lower RPM... hence very big low end. Again, totally different from road cars.

The Dakkar races and BTTC used similar-engined road cars, with some mechanical enhancements.

No, ALOT different.

BTTC has a engine capacity limit of 2,000 cc. Thus it invites team and independent representations of road-going cars in the likes of the Alfa 156, BMW 320i, VW Jetta, Volvo S60, the Civic Type R and Integra. All road-going cars.

I know about BTCC. Totally different engines except maybe for bare block and head castings, and still they are highly developed....nothing to do with production engines.

Try taking your stock Alfa, VW, Volvo, BMW engine and apply any form of engine control you want and then run a couple of sprint races, shifting at 9000+ RPM. It won't even make the power, and then in choking form and very shortly after, it will be dead.

 

[DoggieHowser]

Re: Thread Ethics

I could be wrong about this, but the old homologation requirements for Group N did enforce restrictions on the rally cars so they were a lot closer to the road going versions. I think the Group N regulations are still in place today. You can modify cams but not the rest of the engine and turbo.

Te the WRC class introduced a few years ago are a totally different beast however.

 

[Evo9]

Re: Thread Ethics

With next to nothing to do with the production cars. Go ahead and tell me what production components they use.

Min production number has nothing to do with components used in actual race car. Engine power is not substantially more than production. They air run restrictors which force power production at lower RPM... hence very big low end. Again, totally different from road cars.

No, ALOT different.

You are incorrect.

Details can be got from the following website (and also from other WRC-related sites for other makes too):
http://www.cwn.org.uk/motoring/peugeot/1999/05/990505-206-gt.htm


The 206 WRC uses many components derived from the road car including the main structure, front chassis and suspension, engine block and cylinder head.

Power output from the 2.0 litre 16 valve engine is increased to 300 bhp with maximum torque of 500 Nm. All four wheels are driven through a six-speed sequential gearbox.

The 206 GT (Grand Tourisme)
-----------------------------------------

To comply with international rallying regulations Peugeot will be building a total of 4,000 (minimum required 2,500) road going cars to the same overall dimensions of the 206 WRC. The 206 WRC is 4 metres in length compared to the standard passenger car’s 3.83m.

These dramatic looking metallic silver cars will be badged 206 Grand Tourisme and will be powered by Peugeot’s new 137bhp 2.0 litre 16 valve petrol engine soon to be introduced in the 206 GTi.

Despite its sporty looks, the 206 GT is a comfortable car and has been equipped to satisfy even the most demanding clientele. Standard features include automatic air conditioning, rain sensing windscreen wipers, RDS radio and CD player with remote digital display, side airbags and four head restraints.

Only six hundred right hand drive cars will be built from the total of four thousand. Each car will be authenticated with an aluminium plate bearing a serial number from 1 to 4,000 located on the door pillar.

The 206 GT will go into production at Peugeot’s UK plant near Coventry in June and will be available to buy at a price of £15,695 on the road.