Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
- Thread starter Racebred
- Start date
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
1. Liam GT3RS PAID
2. t_k S2K PAID
3. ac323 Z4 / no / no / no PAID
4. AJ 911 GTS / no / no / no PAID
5. Elite Family Sedan or Silver Surfer / no / no / no
6. MachoMan S2K / no / no / no
7. Sy017 Megane RS / no / no / no
8. Shaun S2K
9. andyxgy M5/Evo X / no / no / no
10. mer707cury/fd2r/no/no/no
11. kimmie026/evo10/no/no/no
12. revver / FD2R / no / no / no
13. Dave FD2R / no / no / no
14. James FD2R / no / no / extra driver PAID
15. totoseow / Vw kombivan circa 1972/no/no/no
16. godjira1/r8/no/no/no
17. Harold996tt/ Mitsughini /no/no/no
18. TripleM / M3 / No / No / No
19. Brandon.STi/No/No/No
20. Jonathan S2K / No / No / No
21. onara77 S2K /No/No/No
Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
1. Liam GT3RS PAID
2. t_k S2K PAID
3. ac323 Z4 / no / no / no PAID
4. AJ 911 GTS / no / no / no PAID
5. Elite Family Sedan or Silver Surfer / no / no / no
6. MachoMan S2K / no / no / no
7. Sy017 Megane RS / no / no / no
8. Shaun S2K
9. andyxgy M5/Evo X / no / no / no
10. mer707cury/fd2r/no/no/no
11. kimmie026/evo10/no/no/no
12. revver / FD2R / no / no / no
13. Dave FD2R / no / no / no
14. James FD2R / no / no / extra driver PAID
15. totoseow / Vw kombivan circa 1972/no/no/no
16. godjira1/r8/no/no/no
17. Harold996tt/ Mitsughini /no/no/no
18. TripleM / M3 / No / No / No
19. Brandon.STi/No/No/No
20. Jonathan S2K / No / No / No
21. onara77 S2K /No/No/No
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
No violent objection, but perhaps normal objection. Reason being I'm not a fan of people using normal trackdays (and not the Sepang hour by hour test sessions) to run their one off cars. Yes we've had people test their track or racecars at the BMWsg trackdays, but the difference is they were at least regular trackers with the club for a while. It's not like they join new and bring a one off car at the same time.
One off cars are very likely to breakdown and cause long red flags IMO. Especially if there's no local crew that has worked for a while, and is familiar with the car, has all issues ironed out. It is a different situation with the Porsche Cup cars and say the VRD crew. Even then I am not for 2:10 - 2:15 trackcars/racecars running alongside mostly 2:40 - 2:50 roadcars with enthusiast drivers, as expressed before on these older threads - http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-section/43999-trackcar-racecar-vote.html and http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-section/54996-official-2012-bmwsg-sepang-track-day-thread.html Most people voted otherwise, but I still believe it is a mistake.
On the other hand there is a legitimate concern of getting enough cars to make the trackday viable. However, it is better off filled with road cars and this can be done by working with other car clubs or garages in Singapore and Malaysia. Ultrafast prototypes, formula based cars, GT racecars, can all get together and organize their own trackdays, or use the existing and much emptier Sepang test sessions where red flags cost only a few other drivers lost time, and not 30 - 40 other enthusiast roadcar drivers. There's also time between sessions to fix the car or improve setup. At least run a couple of those sessions to get the car dialed in, test its reliability, show driver safety. I think there might be less objection then - though personally I work off % diff in laptime and believe 7 - 10% is about the limit.
MachoMan;840523 said:
No violent objection, but perhaps normal objection. Reason being I'm not a fan of people using normal trackdays (and not the Sepang hour by hour test sessions) to run their one off cars. Yes we've had people test their track or racecars at the BMWsg trackdays, but the difference is they were at least regular trackers with the club for a while. It's not like they join new and bring a one off car at the same time.
One off cars are very likely to breakdown and cause long red flags IMO. Especially if there's no local crew that has worked for a while, and is familiar with the car, has all issues ironed out. It is a different situation with the Porsche Cup cars and say the VRD crew. Even then I am not for 2:10 - 2:15 trackcars/racecars running alongside mostly 2:40 - 2:50 roadcars with enthusiast drivers, as expressed before on these older threads - http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-section/43999-trackcar-racecar-vote.html and http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-section/54996-official-2012-bmwsg-sepang-track-day-thread.html Most people voted otherwise, but I still believe it is a mistake.
On the other hand there is a legitimate concern of getting enough cars to make the trackday viable. However, it is better off filled with road cars and this can be done by working with other car clubs or garages in Singapore and Malaysia. Ultrafast prototypes, formula based cars, GT racecars, can all get together and organize their own trackdays, or use the existing and much emptier Sepang test sessions where red flags cost only a few other drivers lost time, and not 30 - 40 other enthusiast roadcar drivers. There's also time between sessions to fix the car or improve setup. At least run a couple of those sessions to get the car dialed in, test its reliability, show driver safety. I think there might be less objection then - though personally I work off % diff in laptime and believe 7 - 10% is about the limit.
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
because:
No violent objection, but perhaps normal objection. Reason being I'm not a fan of people using normal trackdays (and not the Sepang hour by hour test sessions) to run their one off cars. Yes we've had people test their track or racecars at the BMWsg trackdays, but the difference is they were at least regular trackers with the club for a while. It's not like they join new and bring a one off car at the same time.
One off cars are very likely to breakdown and cause long red flags IMO. Especially if there's no local crew that has worked for a while, and is familiar with the car, has all issues ironed out. It is a different situation with the Porsche Cup cars and say the VRD crew. Even then I am not for 2:10 - 2:15 trackcars/racecars running alongside mostly 2:40 - 2:50 roadcars with enthusiast drivers, as expressed before on these older threads - http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-s...ecar-vote.html and http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-s...ay-thread.html Most people voted otherwise, but I still believe it is a mistake.
On the other hand there is a legitimate concern of getting enough cars to make the trackday viable. However, it is better off filled with road cars and this can be done by working with other car clubs or garages in Singapore and Malaysia. Ultrafast prototypes, formula based cars, GT racecars, can all get together and organize their own trackdays, or use the existing and much emptier Sepang test sessions where red flags cost only a few other drivers lost time, and not 30 - 40 other enthusiast roadcar drivers. There's also time between sessions to fix the car or improve setup. At least run a couple of those sessions to get the car dialed in, test its reliability, show driver safety. I think there might be less objection then - though personally I work off % diff in laptime and believe 7 - 10% is about the limit.
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MachoMan;840671 said:
because:
No violent objection, but perhaps normal objection. Reason being I'm not a fan of people using normal trackdays (and not the Sepang hour by hour test sessions) to run their one off cars. Yes we've had people test their track or racecars at the BMWsg trackdays, but the difference is they were at least regular trackers with the club for a while. It's not like they join new and bring a one off car at the same time.
One off cars are very likely to breakdown and cause long red flags IMO. Especially if there's no local crew that has worked for a while, and is familiar with the car, has all issues ironed out. It is a different situation with the Porsche Cup cars and say the VRD crew. Even then I am not for 2:10 - 2:15 trackcars/racecars running alongside mostly 2:40 - 2:50 roadcars with enthusiast drivers, as expressed before on these older threads - http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-s...ecar-vote.html and http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/track-s...ay-thread.html Most people voted otherwise, but I still believe it is a mistake.
On the other hand there is a legitimate concern of getting enough cars to make the trackday viable. However, it is better off filled with road cars and this can be done by working with other car clubs or garages in Singapore and Malaysia. Ultrafast prototypes, formula based cars, GT racecars, can all get together and organize their own trackdays, or use the existing and much emptier Sepang test sessions where red flags cost only a few other drivers lost time, and not 30 - 40 other enthusiast roadcar drivers. There's also time between sessions to fix the car or improve setup. At least run a couple of those sessions to get the car dialed in, test its reliability, show driver safety. I think there might be less objection then - though personally I work off % diff in laptime and believe 7 - 10% is about the limit.
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Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
To add - if I recall right, there've been only 4 trackcars or racecars in the last 3 years that have been run at BMWsg trackdays. 1 by an old regular (car is 100% reliable), 2 by a couple pretty well known drivers/racers, one of whom is an old regular too (cars were crewed by reputable team and were 100% reliable), 1 by an old regular (car was not at all reliable, caused multiple reds, and is no longer run at the trackdays, eventually voted out in the BMWsg trackcar poll linked to earlier).
So these cars really are few and far between at a primarily road car trackday mate. Nothing personal.
To add - if I recall right, there've been only 4 trackcars or racecars in the last 3 years that have been run at BMWsg trackdays. 1 by an old regular (car is 100% reliable), 2 by a couple pretty well known drivers/racers, one of whom is an old regular too (cars were crewed by reputable team and were 100% reliable), 1 by an old regular (car was not at all reliable, caused multiple reds, and is no longer run at the trackdays, eventually voted out in the BMWsg trackcar poll linked to earlier).
So these cars really are few and far between at a primarily road car trackday mate. Nothing personal.
Racebred
Core Group Members
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
I remember off hand we have more than a couple of 911 cups, 2-11, couple of atoms, radical, track prepped subarus and honda I think. Other than red flags, have there been any safety concerns that the above cars caused?
Btw received machoman and sy017 payments. Will update the list when I'm not browsing thru a tablet
I remember off hand we have more than a couple of 911 cups, 2-11, couple of atoms, radical, track prepped subarus and honda I think. Other than red flags, have there been any safety concerns that the above cars caused?
Btw received machoman and sy017 payments. Will update the list when I'm not browsing thru a tablet
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
Mate, of the 8 or so cars you mention, 6 of them were in the 2:27 - 2:40 range which is no where near the 2:10 kind of fast. 27 - 40 is firmly in roadcar territory. A trackcar swift in the 2:45 - 2:55 range can be considered slow vs some stock roadcars. So trackcar is too broad a category.. performance and risks vary widely within it. Anyway these 6 were crewed by teams or garages that had a good reputation, most of whom have run multiple endurance events and done decent. The cars had proven reliability in other track events or test sessions well before BMWsg trackdays.
The 2 cars that got to sub 20s had drivers with a driving history with the club (driving other road cars with the club before getting into these trackcars). And both are known to have raced the same class of vehicle in multiple races prior to that.
All the above is what differentiates an unknown bringing a big power low weight kit car capable of 2:10 times, that has not run locally in any races or other events and proven its reliability. Unknown crew and driver. With driver having 0 history with the club.
Lastly while there have not yet been incidents of some prototype or formula based car smashing into a 1.9 ton roadcar and killing/injuring the driver, I think it's important to actively take steps and do what we can to minimize the chance of it happening. Once something bad enough happens there's just no taking it back....just full of downside and no upside, given that there are already very viable alternatives to run fast racecars and trackcars, in much safer conditions for all track users. This month alone, the Ultima can actually get 18 hours of drive time in total, spread across 9 days and 18 sessions. Spoiled for choice
It'll be amongst the same class of cars too - so not spooking anyone, and not getting held up by endless roadcar traffic. Sepang Circuit Track Days | Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
===
Repeating from the previous 2 threads, the only events in the world that mix classes of car with such a large difference in laptime, are LMS races, but they are driven by mostly pros (esp the faster classes), with a smattering of semi pros. Every car has safety a high priority - tub/cage fully tested and certified, fire suppression, harnesses, hans, nomex, spotters, radios, etc.
I really believe it is a bad idea to match or exceed these speed differences (~20%), while on top of that greatly exceed weight differences (~130%), with enthusiasts drivers everywhere and less than 3 semi pros at any one time, and a lower focus on safety. I think we also can agree that pro race events in EU, UK, US, will have better safety support vs open trackdays in Malaysia - earlier warning, better flagging, better trained marshals, faster med evac plans.
My 2c and nothing personal. Cool cars being used as designed are always nice to see, Simon is cool too. But have to look objectively at the issue.
Racebred;845643 said:
Mate, of the 8 or so cars you mention, 6 of them were in the 2:27 - 2:40 range which is no where near the 2:10 kind of fast. 27 - 40 is firmly in roadcar territory. A trackcar swift in the 2:45 - 2:55 range can be considered slow vs some stock roadcars. So trackcar is too broad a category.. performance and risks vary widely within it. Anyway these 6 were crewed by teams or garages that had a good reputation, most of whom have run multiple endurance events and done decent. The cars had proven reliability in other track events or test sessions well before BMWsg trackdays.
The 2 cars that got to sub 20s had drivers with a driving history with the club (driving other road cars with the club before getting into these trackcars). And both are known to have raced the same class of vehicle in multiple races prior to that.
All the above is what differentiates an unknown bringing a big power low weight kit car capable of 2:10 times, that has not run locally in any races or other events and proven its reliability. Unknown crew and driver. With driver having 0 history with the club.
Lastly while there have not yet been incidents of some prototype or formula based car smashing into a 1.9 ton roadcar and killing/injuring the driver, I think it's important to actively take steps and do what we can to minimize the chance of it happening. Once something bad enough happens there's just no taking it back....just full of downside and no upside, given that there are already very viable alternatives to run fast racecars and trackcars, in much safer conditions for all track users. This month alone, the Ultima can actually get 18 hours of drive time in total, spread across 9 days and 18 sessions. Spoiled for choice
It'll be amongst the same class of cars too - so not spooking anyone, and not getting held up by endless roadcar traffic. Sepang Circuit Track Days | Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia===
Repeating from the previous 2 threads, the only events in the world that mix classes of car with such a large difference in laptime, are LMS races, but they are driven by mostly pros (esp the faster classes), with a smattering of semi pros. Every car has safety a high priority - tub/cage fully tested and certified, fire suppression, harnesses, hans, nomex, spotters, radios, etc.
I really believe it is a bad idea to match or exceed these speed differences (~20%), while on top of that greatly exceed weight differences (~130%), with enthusiasts drivers everywhere and less than 3 semi pros at any one time, and a lower focus on safety. I think we also can agree that pro race events in EU, UK, US, will have better safety support vs open trackdays in Malaysia - earlier warning, better flagging, better trained marshals, faster med evac plans.
My 2c and nothing personal. Cool cars being used as designed are always nice to see, Simon is cool too. But have to look objectively at the issue.
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
haha only because they are hustling in a high stakes game. If you put pros in cars and take away the need to win (no glory, no money, no boss orders), they would not make mistakes or take chances that result in collisions of that nature
Tanzy;845710 said:
haha only because they are hustling in a high stakes game. If you put pros in cars and take away the need to win (no glory, no money, no boss orders), they would not make mistakes or take chances that result in collisions of that nature
MachoMan
Well-Known Member
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
No to worry. It was never viewed in that way. Objective is good, straight to the point. In fact I have read through those two threads that you listed before I even posted the question about bringing in the Ultima. What I didn't know is what category (GT2, GT3, prototype etc) the Ultima falls into. As far as I know, it can be registered as a road car in other countries. The specs of the car looks impressive, but I am clueless about the kind of pace it will/can achieve on Sepang.
I am also aware of the available test days that Sepang offers. Bringing it in on this coming BMW trackday is more about timing and having kaki along for the trip. At this point, the car is waiting for a couple of parts to be replaced for reliability. And high chance the car will be ready by 19Aug. Good point about cars not being reliable and causing red flags at everyone's expense. But how does one consider a car to be in good/reliable condition? Reliable just because it's built by a reputable workshop or team? In Australia, our cars goes through scrutineering along with our personal safety equipment before we are even allowed onto the track. An ill maintained road car can be less reliable than a track car.
The issue of the speed differential is valid. I understand that it can be very intimidating for newer trackies. My personal opinion is that the driver of such a fast car is the issue, not the car. So from the history of Porsche cup cars that were allowed on BMW track days, am I right to say that it is only possible to bring such 'supercars' to track days if the driver has been a long time BMW trackie, and who is known to be safe and not cause red flags? Or should any car which is capable of 2:25 and below be banned (regardless of driver ethics, skills etc)?
There are just too many variables and considerations. I only seek everyone's opinion here because the other thread on this topic doesn't seem to have a firm conclusion. It's a BMW track day, and I will respect the club's rules. No worries mate.
Shaun;845703 said:
No to worry. It was never viewed in that way. Objective is good, straight to the point. In fact I have read through those two threads that you listed before I even posted the question about bringing in the Ultima. What I didn't know is what category (GT2, GT3, prototype etc) the Ultima falls into. As far as I know, it can be registered as a road car in other countries. The specs of the car looks impressive, but I am clueless about the kind of pace it will/can achieve on Sepang.
I am also aware of the available test days that Sepang offers. Bringing it in on this coming BMW trackday is more about timing and having kaki along for the trip. At this point, the car is waiting for a couple of parts to be replaced for reliability. And high chance the car will be ready by 19Aug. Good point about cars not being reliable and causing red flags at everyone's expense. But how does one consider a car to be in good/reliable condition? Reliable just because it's built by a reputable workshop or team? In Australia, our cars goes through scrutineering along with our personal safety equipment before we are even allowed onto the track. An ill maintained road car can be less reliable than a track car.
The issue of the speed differential is valid. I understand that it can be very intimidating for newer trackies. My personal opinion is that the driver of such a fast car is the issue, not the car. So from the history of Porsche cup cars that were allowed on BMW track days, am I right to say that it is only possible to bring such 'supercars' to track days if the driver has been a long time BMW trackie, and who is known to be safe and not cause red flags? Or should any car which is capable of 2:25 and below be banned (regardless of driver ethics, skills etc)?
There are just too many variables and considerations. I only seek everyone's opinion here because the other thread on this topic doesn't seem to have a firm conclusion. It's a BMW track day, and I will respect the club's rules. No worries mate.
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
Hi Simon...if you look at its weight, power, downforce, tire size, they are all superior in to a Porsche cup car. All 4 factors are top on the list of factors that determine laptime. The quickest cup car qualifying time at SIC is 2:09. So driver and compound equal, an Ultima will beat that time hollow. Raw spec wise I would put it in between FIA GT2 and GT3 which are both significantly faster than GT3 Cup cars. Vs FIA GT2/3 spec, Ultima has a big advantage in weight (~300kg), tire size, and is not too far down on downforce. Fact that it's road registerable is quite irrelevant. Radical V8 and 1000hp kit cars are road registerable too.
The thing is there will always be opportunities before or after Aug 19th to run a car at the track with kaki along for the trip too
The best way to test reliability is a thorough and extended shakedown and test. How many hours has this Ultima tracked so far on local tracks and what problems if any surfaced? How hard was it shaken and what were the laptimes? Which crew is running it?
Many of the cars listed earlier that have run at BMWsg trackdays before had run hours and hundreds of laps successfully at Sepang prior to that. The top example had gone some 15 hours and over 300 fast laps without problem. At the BMWsg trackday crewed by official distributor for the marque that is quite heavy into motorsport.
If there is no option for a good shakedown and test, then indeed crew reputation is a very good variable to look at. If Joest Racing were to build say an R8 GT car (model of which they have built and run/raced many times before) and declare it good and ready, I would bet on it working very well (and even then teams like that once in a while have issues enough to disable the car on track)
If Mr. Tan AK from Ah Kao Pte Ltd. says that XYZ car is ready but he's never worked on anything like it before, never run a car of that class, no experience, no wins or top 5s,I would bet money on issues 100% cropping up if the car is run hard. If there is a high chance problems will pop up, it's not really good to use crowded roadcar trackdays. The car is so fast that all the other roadcars are basically standing still and nothing but obstructions anyway.
Mentioned safety inspections are for basic worthiness only. Oil leaks, tire condition, visual etc. They do not go down to what a good outfit would do in terms of true mechanical and electrical integrity, managing temps, basically knowing the car inside out, being there every step at build stage and truly knowing the car is ready and is good.
There will always be exceptions and outliers to any set of samples, but why would anyone work off the outliers and not all the rest that fit? Most of the roadcars that go to the trackday are less than 5 years old, were assembled at factories that do a very good job, have not been disassembled since. It is always trickier to build a kit car up, especially a very high performance one. Overall the systems are simpler vs roadcars, but the attention to detail required to put together and maintain these simple systems is vastly greater because there are less or no redundant fasteners, dead locking fasteners, factors of safety are smaller on performance cars, there is a much greater sensitivity to setup.
Yes I agree driver is a larger factor than car, but who is the driver? There is no info about the car, driver, or the history of either. If there was a semi known driver, and a semi known car history, trust me no one would even think twice, but at this point there is 0 to go on.
Also, we are talking all else equal and it cannot be denied that big power, speed, grip, all require a better driver to drive safely. And that the same margin or error in a more normal car would be penalized less vs in a crazier car.
Cautious and safe as most newbie drivers are, would you start them out in say a GT1 car with 0 electronic aids despite them being really timid? Never, because you know they're sitting on a bomb. Put a pro in a GT1 car and surround him with newbies in lesser cars getting passed with 100 - 160 km/h differentials and the result can be very ugly too. Even pro to semi pros in much closer matched cars at smaller differentials get very bad once the slightest unexpected move is made on either side. There's just so much to lose for everyone, and nothing to gain by mixing such different classes of cars together.
Shawn doesn't seem fond of setting rules, and no one else sets any rules, and I guess it's the organizer's subjective call to make, although the previous poll did numerically show what all of old trackers here are comfortable with.
IMO, having a tracking history with the club, contributing content to this forum, over the years going from slower roadcar to faster roadcar to basic trackcar, then to well tested racecar, etc. would all help with the trust in a person, his judgement, as shown in word and action over time.
The opposite is a complete stranger, with an unknown history, no interaction or contribution to the club before, suddenly showing up with a wild car that has never run solid laps, that has no reputable crew or garage confidently stating the car is good and ready. If this were to be permitted then the floodgates really are open for anyone to being any car to BMWsg trackdays.
This is a possibility but then it's also tough because people will start sandbagging just to get around the rule... bring a formula car and claim it is just a 2:26 car hahah
Cool man.. and this is just my view. As can be seen on a few other threads here, the folks here never agree unanimously on anything, so others will have their own view and it's up to them to express it clearly and then Shawn can decide or open it up to a vote if he wants.
Cheers
MachoMan;845816 said:
Hi Simon...if you look at its weight, power, downforce, tire size, they are all superior in to a Porsche cup car. All 4 factors are top on the list of factors that determine laptime. The quickest cup car qualifying time at SIC is 2:09. So driver and compound equal, an Ultima will beat that time hollow. Raw spec wise I would put it in between FIA GT2 and GT3 which are both significantly faster than GT3 Cup cars. Vs FIA GT2/3 spec, Ultima has a big advantage in weight (~300kg), tire size, and is not too far down on downforce. Fact that it's road registerable is quite irrelevant. Radical V8 and 1000hp kit cars are road registerable too.
The thing is there will always be opportunities before or after Aug 19th to run a car at the track with kaki along for the trip too
The best way to test reliability is a thorough and extended shakedown and test. How many hours has this Ultima tracked so far on local tracks and what problems if any surfaced? How hard was it shaken and what were the laptimes? Which crew is running it?
Many of the cars listed earlier that have run at BMWsg trackdays before had run hours and hundreds of laps successfully at Sepang prior to that. The top example had gone some 15 hours and over 300 fast laps without problem. At the BMWsg trackday crewed by official distributor for the marque that is quite heavy into motorsport.
If there is no option for a good shakedown and test, then indeed crew reputation is a very good variable to look at. If Joest Racing were to build say an R8 GT car (model of which they have built and run/raced many times before) and declare it good and ready, I would bet on it working very well (and even then teams like that once in a while have issues enough to disable the car on track)
If Mr. Tan AK from Ah Kao Pte Ltd. says that XYZ car is ready but he's never worked on anything like it before, never run a car of that class, no experience, no wins or top 5s,I would bet money on issues 100% cropping up if the car is run hard. If there is a high chance problems will pop up, it's not really good to use crowded roadcar trackdays. The car is so fast that all the other roadcars are basically standing still and nothing but obstructions anyway.
Mentioned safety inspections are for basic worthiness only. Oil leaks, tire condition, visual etc. They do not go down to what a good outfit would do in terms of true mechanical and electrical integrity, managing temps, basically knowing the car inside out, being there every step at build stage and truly knowing the car is ready and is good.
There will always be exceptions and outliers to any set of samples, but why would anyone work off the outliers and not all the rest that fit? Most of the roadcars that go to the trackday are less than 5 years old, were assembled at factories that do a very good job, have not been disassembled since. It is always trickier to build a kit car up, especially a very high performance one. Overall the systems are simpler vs roadcars, but the attention to detail required to put together and maintain these simple systems is vastly greater because there are less or no redundant fasteners, dead locking fasteners, factors of safety are smaller on performance cars, there is a much greater sensitivity to setup.
Yes I agree driver is a larger factor than car, but who is the driver? There is no info about the car, driver, or the history of either. If there was a semi known driver, and a semi known car history, trust me no one would even think twice, but at this point there is 0 to go on.
Also, we are talking all else equal and it cannot be denied that big power, speed, grip, all require a better driver to drive safely. And that the same margin or error in a more normal car would be penalized less vs in a crazier car.
Cautious and safe as most newbie drivers are, would you start them out in say a GT1 car with 0 electronic aids despite them being really timid? Never, because you know they're sitting on a bomb. Put a pro in a GT1 car and surround him with newbies in lesser cars getting passed with 100 - 160 km/h differentials and the result can be very ugly too. Even pro to semi pros in much closer matched cars at smaller differentials get very bad once the slightest unexpected move is made on either side. There's just so much to lose for everyone, and nothing to gain by mixing such different classes of cars together.
Shawn doesn't seem fond of setting rules, and no one else sets any rules, and I guess it's the organizer's subjective call to make, although the previous poll did numerically show what all of old trackers here are comfortable with.
IMO, having a tracking history with the club, contributing content to this forum, over the years going from slower roadcar to faster roadcar to basic trackcar, then to well tested racecar, etc. would all help with the trust in a person, his judgement, as shown in word and action over time.
The opposite is a complete stranger, with an unknown history, no interaction or contribution to the club before, suddenly showing up with a wild car that has never run solid laps, that has no reputable crew or garage confidently stating the car is good and ready. If this were to be permitted then the floodgates really are open for anyone to being any car to BMWsg trackdays.
This is a possibility but then it's also tough because people will start sandbagging just to get around the rule... bring a formula car and claim it is just a 2:26 car hahah
Cool man.. and this is just my view. As can be seen on a few other threads here, the folks here never agree unanimously on anything, so others will have their own view and it's up to them to express it clearly and then Shawn can decide or open it up to a vote if he wants.
Cheers
MachoMan
Well-Known Member
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
Hmm... Didn't know the Ultima is so 'power'. Haha.. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to type all these out. Yes, not providing any details about the driver makes it hard for folks to form any opinion. The driver is not a big name, so i doubt anyone will know anyway. But he's a gentleman, and an experienced driver who tracks a 911 Turbo with some MME and S1k under his belt. I will relay the msg to him to go for Sepang test days instead. Will leave this issue as it is here, so as not of bring this thread any more off topic.
Now, let's see what's the next 'supercar' what will be up for 'approval' in the BMW track days... lol
Hmm... Didn't know the Ultima is so 'power'. Haha.. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to type all these out. Yes, not providing any details about the driver makes it hard for folks to form any opinion. The driver is not a big name, so i doubt anyone will know anyway. But he's a gentleman, and an experienced driver who tracks a 911 Turbo with some MME and S1k under his belt. I will relay the msg to him to go for Sepang test days instead. Will leave this issue as it is here, so as not of bring this thread any more off topic.
Now, let's see what's the next 'supercar' what will be up for 'approval' in the BMW track days... lol
impavidus
Well-Known Member
Re: Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
1. Liam GT3RS PAID
2. t_k S2K PAID
3. ac323 Z4 / no / no / no PAID
4. AJ 911 GTS / no / no / no PAID
5. Elite Family Sedan or Silver Surfer / no / no / no
6. MachoMan S2K / no / no / no PAID
7. Sy017 Megane RS / no / no / no PAID
8. Shaun S2K
9. andyxgy M5/Evo X / no / no / no
10. mer707cury/fd2r/no/no/no
11. kimmie026/evo10/no/no/no
12. revver / FD2R / no / no / no
13. Dave FD2R / no / no / no
14. James FD2R / no / no / extra driver PAID
15. totoseow / Vw kombivan circa 1972/no/no/no
16. godjira1/r8/no/no/no
17. Harold996tt/ Mitsughini /no/no/no
18. TripleM / M3 / No / No / No
19. Brandon.STi/No/No/No
20. Jonathan S2K / No / No / No
21. onara77 S2K /No/No/No
22. Impavidus Roc / No / No / No
Sign up for Sepang Track Day 19 Aug
1. Liam GT3RS PAID
2. t_k S2K PAID
3. ac323 Z4 / no / no / no PAID
4. AJ 911 GTS / no / no / no PAID
5. Elite Family Sedan or Silver Surfer / no / no / no
6. MachoMan S2K / no / no / no PAID
7. Sy017 Megane RS / no / no / no PAID
8. Shaun S2K
9. andyxgy M5/Evo X / no / no / no
10. mer707cury/fd2r/no/no/no
11. kimmie026/evo10/no/no/no
12. revver / FD2R / no / no / no
13. Dave FD2R / no / no / no
14. James FD2R / no / no / extra driver PAID
15. totoseow / Vw kombivan circa 1972/no/no/no
16. godjira1/r8/no/no/no
17. Harold996tt/ Mitsughini /no/no/no
18. TripleM / M3 / No / No / No
19. Brandon.STi/No/No/No
20. Jonathan S2K / No / No / No
21. onara77 S2K /No/No/No
22. Impavidus Roc / No / No / No
Last edited by a moderator:
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