Progessive tuner????

[Shaun]

The power gain is highly optimistic.

He is selling less than 5 USD of parts and labour for 50 USD. Huge profit.

Making the IAT "see" cooler temps by varying resistance and advance ignition timing is silly because the newer gen ECUs get to this point by themselves by searching. Hurrying the process by tricking the IAT sensor only will run it into knock and then have the ECU retard timing by a chunk in an emergency-type response.

It could be slightly beneficial on the much older types of MAF/ECU where IATs affect fuel trim. Simulating hotter air and having the ECU reduce fuelling and lean out stock rich mixtures. Still.. run it into knock and it will retard timing and it is back to square one - just at a lower efficiency because of non-optimized timing.

Save your money.

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Shuan

Do u noe how does a FCON V Pro works? Why the MAF is not required in this setup?

 

[Shaun]

It runs a speed-density system like a lot of standalone systems do. It measures manifold pressure, air temp and it knows engine speed and throttle position. With these variables it looks up the right portion of the maps for AFR and ignition timing and applies it.

Speed density is good in terms of simplicity, speed, and not being limited by MAF signal range and/or physical restriction of the MAF. Downside is that for any change in engine volumetric efficiency, the speed density system needs tuning to match. This is because mass air flow in a speed density system is calculated rather than directly measured as in MAF systems. Change a constant (via any power mod) and a retune is necessary for optimal result. Lacks flexibility but is fine for high performance where little expense is spared in the quest for performance and reliability.

Regarding V pro.. personally I don't believe in proprietary tuning and what not. If I ever run standalone I am going to have access to whatever I want and have tuner options. I refuse to be stuck with a HKS authorized shop only. When there is no free market then prices can't be very fair.

Wow you must be doing something hardcore if you're considering standalone

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Thanks for sharing bro!

BTW, for an EVO, do u noe where is the air manifold pressure sensor and the temp sensor?

Vpro cost S$5k plus from GR!! Australia HKS dealer is selling at A$1700 but of course no programmer. Its a controlled market! Sigh....

Guranteed to achieve 400hp at least.

Any lobang u might wan2 share?

 

[Shaun]

Nope I'm not sure.. never looked hard into an evo engine bay.

What seperates the good ECUs from the bad is more tuning resolution, features, interface. Maximum power output limit is hardware and not software/ECU limited. An SDS standalone system would make the same amount of power as a Motec M800. How smooth they drive in different conditions and fast-changing conditions is different though.

I'm not saying SDS is as good as Motec. I'm only saying that expected power should not be a consideration point from standalone to standalone since it is going to be the same. Anyone who says otherwise is a squirrel. You have fixed physical parameters (cams, ports, rest of the induction system, exhaust system) that determine mass air in the cylinder and compression, fixed piston movement, air and fluid temps fixed by the design of the car, etc. What is left for the ECU is to specify AFR, and to light the mix according to tuner specifications. So output depends heavily on the tuner and margin of safety he decides to incorporate - not the ECU.

Sorry no lobang bro I'll let you know if I do find some in the future. As of now I only have lobang for bosch style injectors from 360cc-1000+cc.. both low and high impedence. Best prices I can find anywhere in the US and SG.

 

[rex7_vtec]

Thanks for sharing bro!

BTW, for an EVO, do u noe where is the air manifold pressure sensor and the temp sensor?

Vpro cost S$5k plus from GR!! Australia HKS dealer is selling at A$1700 but of course no programmer. Its a controlled market! Sigh....

Guranteed to achieve 400hp at least.

Any lobang u might wan2 share?

Hey dude, if you gonna spend SG$5k for the V-Pro, might as well go for a MoTec M800. If I'm not mistaken, it would cost around S$5.5k inclusive of tuning and air ticket for the Aussie dude to come down. The same guy that is tuning the Black STi Type R with 700 dyno proven BHP.

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Ok, I KIV tis mod. If you find new leads pls share with us ok?...


How good is Bosch style injectors? Can it fit my EVO?

 

[Whisky_Tango]

[quote="rex7_vtec
Hey dude, if you gonna spend SG$5k for the V-Pro, might as well go for a MoTec M800. If I'm not mistaken, it would cost around S$5.5k inclusive of tuning and air ticket for the Aussie dude to come down. The same guy that is tuning the Black STi Type R with 700 dyno proven BHP.[/quote]

Wah! 700BHP! eh... tats too much for me.

I tot motec cost abt S$10K?? Well anyway, even S$5.5K I also consider cos no money liao. kekeke....

Thanx for sharing pal, if I do reconsider, I will seek for your contact then...

Cheers!

 

[Shaun]

not sure what type of injectors the evos use but if you ever go to a custom intake manifold then they definitely fit. also if you by any chance go to a secondary injector setup then they can be made to fit.

Rev.. what happens if something doesn't work quite right while the aussie guy is not around? If the car is taken to someone else to try and rectify the problem then how is workmanship/tuning responsibility shared between the aussie and the local guy?

I've heard of a local company charging a rich caucasian guy like 12K for Motec ? Don't even know if that was the flagship M800!

 

[hamann]

Re: Progessive tuner????

yea..website sounds and looks great,but shawn advise that its a gimick...rite?? or will someone R and D first...?? :laughlik:

Not sure if this have been put up for discussion before but I found on ebay someone selling progressive tuner that promise to provide for BMW +7 to +22hp at the wheels by just plugging the tuner and some 30 minutes installation. Never heard about it before, but check it out, this guy have tuners for various beemer series

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...&tc=photo&rd=1&item=7919738717&category=46100

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Re: Progessive tuner????

yea..website sounds and looks great,but shawn advise that its a gimick...rite?? or will someone R and D first...?? :laughlik:

I think u meant Shuan??

Its LPPL to install tat per Shuan's advice. Think you R&D first?? kekeke...

 

[hamann]

Re: Progessive tuner????

yea ...shuan...bro i think u go ahead...wahahhaha,i will go for the obit instead...wahhahahaha :twisted: gd luck!!!

yea..website sounds and looks great,but shawn advise that its a gimick...rite?? or will someone R and D first...?? :laughlik:

I think u meant Shuan??

Its LPPL to install tat per Shuan's advice. Think you R&D first?? kekeke...

 

[Shaun]

oh missed your question sorry. The injectors are good as anything out there. When I say Bosch Style it is referring to the shape, not that they're imitation or anything. Bosch, Siemens, Siemens DEKA, they all make/are Bosch style/shape injectors and these are the brands I have access to.

Also many stock cars use both MAFs and MAPs together nowadays. Flexibility of MAF and the ability to trim maps somewhat. MAP used for boost control. Potential total switch over to speed density method of metering under higher loads and more transient situations. Under what conditions the switch occurs and what combination of sensors they use to look up maps is specific to make, model, and to age of software.

Other cars run either MAF or MAP, but I do not know of any force induced car that runs MAF only. It is even possible to calculate manifold pressure just off MAF and a bunch of other constants like pressure drop across tract, intercooler efficiency, engine speed, intake tract volume. But it is highly inflexible, requires huge map set, and is complex to the point that it just isn't accurate.

Stock control systems are becoming extremely intelligent and specific in the way they function. Used to be quite generic but now requires study on a case by case basis. Example.. some of the new generation Volvos actually function in closed loop even at WOT till 4000rpm or so. Quite unheard of just 2 or 3 years ago.

 

[Crufty Dusty]

Nope I'm not sure.. never looked hard into an evo engine bay.

What seperates the good ECUs from the bad is more tuning resolution, features, interface. Maximum power output limit is hardware and not software/ECU limited. An SDS standalone system would make the same amount of power as a Motec M800. How smooth they drive in different conditions and fast-changing conditions is different though.

Hey my man, I agree with most of what you typed, but there are situations where a feature can increase power given the same hardware but is not available to other ECUs, and is a reason why certain ECUs command a premium over others. e.g. for MoTeC you have control over individual cylinder fuel trim with individual cylinder tables in 3D, cam control, gear compensation etc.

 

[Shaun]

The individual fuel trim is worth a minute amount of power. But yes you are right I guess. I did not want to get too deep into it, like batch and sequential injection/ignition and even further adjustment within seq. inj. itself, etc.

Cam control improves width of power, and not peak. In racing even without cam control, everything is optimized for peak power.

Thanks for joining in the discussion

 

[Shaun]

The other thing is whether or not the tuner even is going to spend the extra HOURS to get that last tenth of a tenth that the driver is not going to feel or need to use. Variances in air conditions, fuel, they're all going to be used to cover it.

In competition all of it matters, but putting around on street and heading up north for the weekly trackday with no spec competition.. the difference between a well tuned SDS and a well tuned Motec isn't going to come close to showing itself.

 

[Crufty Dusty]

Thanks for sharing bro!

BTW, for an EVO, do u noe where is the air manifold pressure sensor and the temp sensor?

Vpro cost S$5k plus from GR!! Australia HKS dealer is selling at A$1700 but of course no programmer. Its a controlled market! Sigh....

Guranteed to achieve 400hp at least.

Any lobang u might wan2 share?

Sorry to jump in but I'm curious to know, how did you come about with the "400 hp" number? Someone told you?

 

[Crufty Dusty]

The other thing is whether or not the tuner even is going to spend the extra HOURS to get that last tenth of a tenth that the driver is not going to feel or need to use. Variances in air conditions, fuel, they're all going to be used to cover it.

In competition all of it matters, but putting around on street and heading up north for the weekly trackday with no spec competition.. the difference between a well tuned SDS and a well tuned Motec isn't going to come close to showing itself.

Yo bro, relax... :laughlik:

As for puttering around on street, then cam control becomes paramount, no?

I agree that for most purposes, there really is no difference between ECUs.

 

[Shaun]

? I am relaxed

yah important for street, but not for peak power like was suggested in the 400hp guarantee. The degree of injection control has some influence on peak power, but not cam control.

Paramount..perhaps not. I'd put turbo selection (if applicable) as well as int. and exh. tract efficiency over it IIRC Evos don't have cam control.. and on systems where both cams come stock with control, like the S54 M3 engine, when you switch over to Motec, you actually lose control of one cam yet there are street/track M3 guys accepting that loss of width in the pursuit of other things.

Don't know of any standalone that currently caters for both cams. Even 1 alone is very hard to tune.

 

[Crufty Dusty]

? I am relaxed

yah important for street, but not for peak power like was suggested in the 400hp guarantee. The degree of injection control has some influence on peak power, but not cam control.

Paramount..perhaps not. I'd put turbo selection (if applicable) as well as int. and exh. tract efficiency over it IIRC Evos don't have cam control.. and on systems where both cams come stock with control, like the S54 M3 engine, when you switch over to Motec, you actually lose control of one cam yet there are street/track M3 guys accepting that loss of width in the pursuit of other things.

Don't know of any standalone that currently caters for both cams. Even 1 alone is very hard to tune.

Oh man I think we're talking about different things at the same time hehehe

I was referring to the difference between ECUs... and that some ECUs such as the MoTeC has features such as cam control, which does make a difference in the power department, given the same hardware. That is all.

As for the 4G63, you are correct.

As for the MoTeC "losing control of one cam", perhaps you are referring to a different model? Because from what I know, MoTeC M800/M880 does allow control of quad cams, including BMW DVANOS.

http://www.motec.com.au/camcontrol.htm

HTH.