Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

This should be my last post in this thread. I feel that the argument has increasingly thrived on semantics and syntax, and has no bearing whatsoever on practicality.

kenntona – good to see that both you and centurion seem to agree on ‘second handers’ and what I would call ‘rationalists’ as pure types. I suspect most people on this forum (myself included) would fall somewhere in between. You’ve raised a good point that most car buyers base their decisions on multiple criteria. But I would have to disagree with your statement that a study of those who mainly buy to impress or to show off would be an exercise in statistical improbability. Vendors of luxury goods, BMW AG included, thrive on vanity!

It is very easy to rationalise why one has decided to buy an up-market car like a Porsche or a BMW. People will justify their purchase decisions by quoting reasons like excellent German engineering, better than any Japanese car, 0 – 100 in 4.8 seconds, etc etc. These are their ostensible reasons. What they are less likely to say are things like ‘I want to show people how successful I am.’ Or ‘This will look much better in the golf club car park.’ Or ‘I can’t stand the fact that my in-law has one and I don’t.’ Or ‘I want women / men to find me more attractive.’

The latter reasons are not usually mentioned because they are seen as less virtuous. But this does not mean that these reasons are any less valid. In fact, companies like BMW AG actively play on ‘second hander’ qualities like snobbishness. ‘Join us,’ is the invitational caption on a BMW marketing brochure that was left in my car after it was serviced at a dealer a few years ago.

Perhaps someone (not a technological Neanderthal like myself) could start a sticky one day asking forum members why they bought their BMWs. There should obviously be check boxes for things like ‘sheer driving pleasure’ or ‘ultimate driving machine.’ My perverse sense of humour hopes to also see check boxes for other things like ‘penis augmentation’ and ‘charisma transplant.’

Note: Apologies for going off-topic, but I figured that the preceding discussion had gone so far away from the relative merits of driving a Porkie that one more OT post wouldn’t matter.

I'd think we are just walking in circles. Like hcsiow, I have repeatedly said that most of us make our decisions based on a matrix in our mind, and that matrix varies from consumer to consumer. What is certain is that the matrix can never comprise of one or two variables. It will be more of the parameters if the item is considered a big ticket item. In other words, for a $100 tee shirt or a $4000 Vertu phone, yes, there could be only a single parameter on a consumer's mental matrix that says, "yes, I wanna buy this SOLELY to impress my friends. (I might not even like it, but they will think I am cool.)" My point is that for a big ticket item like cars (size connotation of BIG is relative, but in relation to disposable income probably the best comparison), there are no pure second handers. Pure second handers, in your definition, means consumers who thrive 100% on brand ostentation and ZERO product merit. In their matrix, there is only one variable - brand ostentation. This, I beg to differ.

Perhaps I will show you a research paper written on new and used car buyers:

http://www.martinparedes.org/jmp-gmparedes.pdf

The author's premise:​

"First, cars are durable goods: you usually buy a car with the intention of keeping for a long period of time; further, you can buy a used or a new car, since it is an industry with a well-developed secondary market. But cars are also experience goods: you cannot ascertain every characteristic of the car before buying the car −as far as your utility function is concerned−. You can learn a lot about cars before buying them, but you still learn a lot after driving them; in particular, you learn whether they are a good match or a bad match for you."​

This ties in with the multi-variable matrix model in the car consumer behaviour. Experience forms part of the utility derivative, and part of the purchasing matrix. Not just branding, or blind brand faith.​

He further wrote:​

"This paper proposes that, if we consider vehicles as experience goods, consumers may switch brands when the current product did not provide a good match. To ascertain whether experience has an effect on customer loyalty, I compare it with two indicators that measure consumers’ satisfaction with their new vehicles during the first three years after purchase.The Customer Satisfaction Index (CSI) evaluates satisfaction with dealer maintenance and repair services, while the Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout index (APEAL) quantifies owners’ satisfaction with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. Table 2 shows there is in fact a significant positive brand correlation between loyalty and both satisfaction indices. Simply put, the higher the satisfaction of a consumer with her car − which would reflect whether she has had a good experience with her previous car−, the larger the probability that the customer will repeat the purchase of the same brand."​

This has practical bearing in all of us, perhaps more so on car enthusiasts than on car purists. Repetitive purchase of a brand is a function of experience (not a function of brand faith). It is the positive experience that reinforces such brand loyalty, and that experience is a composite of CSI and APEAL - a multi-variable matrix.​

Okay, what about new car owners who has no experience?​

To him: The effect of experience on the price of new cars is more complex, but we can identify three causes for the difference.............​

(a) Shift of the marginal consumer. Since in the equilibrium with experience more consumers have access to a new car, the marginal consumer is lower

(b) Resale value effect. The presence of experience increases the resale value of the new car..... This in turn increases the willingness to pay of new car buyers.​

(c) Choice effect...... In words, new car buyers also have the chance of switching brands after a bad experience, in a similar way than for used car buyers.​

Effects (b) and (c) push up the price of new cars, while effect (a) pushes it down. A priori, we cannot determine which effect dominates. However, when the consumers’ valuation of quality is uniformly distributed, it can be shown that effects (b) and (c) dominate, in which case the price of new cars is higher with experience."​

None of the three effects are purely brand driven. I rest my case.​

Of course, if he does hate me, he hates me not because of me, but himself, so I take no credit here and I take nothing personally. And I'm not flattering myself either - look at the threads recently posted by toto, he thinks of me all the time, like I'm his obsession. LOL, just interesting as hell.

Saify's innocently confused. OLL - not the same kettle of fish. Arsenal, also totally different kettle of fish.​

This forum is similar to all other forums, there are love-hate relationships. Get use to these "kettles of fishes." In real life, nothing has really happened. All will meet at Kallang and talk cock after all the bantering and flaming. Getting out of cyber space and meet them in real life might change your perspectives. Get moving.



​

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

yet another person who can write simply and plainly, reading your stuff, Shaun, with its plain sentence structure and simple language, makes me your fanboy.

Good point about the `anybody who posts cannot say that this thread waste time'. Just the same like - life is good - coz if you really believe it's not, you can't say `life is NOT good' coz you'd have committed suicide.

Why I continue posting is this - I want to TRY to let people know, DON'T be afraid of reflections. There's always plastic surgery. But if you don't have a moral ideal, the plastic surgeon will not have a good model to remodel your face after.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I am relieved to hear it came from this rather obscure source. I was thinking about another centurion. I think his name was 'Biggus Dickus.' Big sword and sandals type character from 'Life of Brian' - one of my favourite movies. I think I'm showing my age by revealing my movie preferences!

`Centurions'

I based it on something random, I don't have any real aspirations to a screen nick, usually I'm using my real name in other forums. I do hope that the name is not too loud as to invoke sensitivities in people the same way as caySman had. Thanks for the name change, admin Puny.

This is the casing I have:

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

There is negative connotation to gangs because of their negative actions. Action (words) on a forum are logged unless deleted and evidence is everywhere. Gangs are not the same as groups, companies, associations, clubs, teams, etc. BMWsg is not a gang. It is perfectly normal to have a group gather for a few specific reasons, and in other areas have its members act as individuals and not run snivelling sideline commentary or carry unconstructive negative emotion arising from a single thread and spread it out across other totally unrelated threads as if the forum is their personal playground.

Again, wrong choice of words here by the threadstarter.

I will never reckon Saify, Toto and all others who could not agree with centurion to be part of a "gang." They are not even a group, for heaven's sake. They simply stand on the same side on this matter.

It is a paranoic manifestation from centurion.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

This should be my last post in this thread. I feel that the argument has increasingly thrived on semantics and syntax, and has no bearing whatsoever on practicality.

This forum is similar to all other forums, there are love-hate relationships. Get use to these "kettles of fishes." In real life, nothing has really happened. All will meet at Kallang and talk cock after all the bantering and flaming. Getting out of cyber space and meet them in real life might change your perspectives. Get moving.​

Kenn, your latest posting affirms this - we are of the same mind in this. We agree that there are 2 poles, just that you think it is an IMPOSSIBILITY to have a pure 2nd hander. I agree to that too. There is no pure second hander, but some people are damn near to the 2nd hander poll.

As for the meetups, sorta reminds me of the quotation from the same damned extract:

Our greatest moments are personal, self-motivated, not to be touched. The things which are sacred or precious to us are the things we withdraw from promiscuous sharing. But now we are taught to throw everything within us into public light and common pawing. To seek joy in meeting halls.

The meetups are fine for meeting like minded individuals. Those who hold the automobile as an object of worship, not for the automobile, but for the countless individuals who have spent millions of hours poring over engineering details to create the marvellous machine we have today. The M cars, valvetronic, the superb ZF gearbox, resonating intake, high strength materials.

But many have asked me - you got a nice car which doesn't make you look like a 50 year old, why don't you park your car in front of the hotel? it'd qualify, even the RX8 is there. Why don't you visit the nightspots where the chicks see it and have a chance for a good pump?

I tell them: thanks for telling me what I should never do. The petrol station attendant asking me `Where's your porsche?' is repulsive enough to me, thank you. I don't know why, I never bothered to search my soul. But it kills me, that one is anticipating that I'm a second hander in need of praise, to get praise in return.

I hope they never will ask me `why don't I bring my car to meetups'. I hope nobody tells me `You must be proud of the car.' But do ask - `how do you find that flat 6 engine in relation to a I6? Both are natural smooth configurations, with self cancelling harmonics. ' I may not give you an answer, but it's not insulting.
​

 

[PerverTT]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

It's nice reading a little bit about other marques in a good forum where the differences can be discussed cleanly. It would be great to have at least one fanboy from every marque in this forum, as long as discussion is clean and structured. It will never be objective, but clean and structured is sufficient.

Shaun - Entirely agree. Any forum that confines itself to one make or one model only gets boring very quickly. While most of us appreciate the qualities of a BMW, I don't think that should preclude discussion of other makes in this forum. Fanboys of all makes and persuasions should be encouraged to post and even indulge in a little flag waving. Provided of course this is done without the occasional bout of acid throwing that happens from time to time.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

The meetups are fine for meeting like minded individuals. Those who hold the automobile as an object of worship, not for the automobile, but for the countless individuals who have spent millions of hours poring over engineering details to create the marvellous machine we have today. The M cars, valvetronic, the superb ZF gearbox, resonating intake, high strength materials.

But many have asked me - you got a nice car which doesn't make you look like a 50 year old, why don't you park your car in front of the hotel? it'd qualify, even the RX8 is there. Why don't you visit the nightspots where the chicks see it and have a chance for a good pump?

I tell them: thanks for telling me what I should never do. The petrol station attendant asking me `Where's your porsche?' is repulsive enough to me, thank you. I don't know why, I never bothered to search my soul. But it kills me, that one is anticipating that I'm a second hander in need of praise, to get praise in return.

I hope they never will ask me `why don't I bring my car to meetups'. I hope nobody tells me `You must be proud of the car.' But do ask - `how do you find that flat 6 engine in relation to a I6? Both are natural smooth configurations, with self cancelling harmonics. ' I may not give you an answer, but it's not insulting.

That's a pre-conceived notion about our meetup. The implication of "those who hold the automobile as an object of worship" for the automobile is subtle but clear.

Now, back to your interesting title........

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

That's a pre-conceived notion about our meetup. The implication of "those who hold the automobile as an object of worship" for the automobile is subtle but clear.

Now, back to your interesting title........

Kenn, wrong.

I have not formed any pre-conceived notion of the meetups. I HAVE been to the BMWSG meetup. I cannot form any notion at all, there are all types.

And "those who hold the automobile as an object of worship" - I'm NOT talking about 2nd handers here. I admire those giants who have slaved to create the automobile we have today. I have lots of model cars. I hold automobiles in great esteem. Admiring those who have slaved to create the automobile of today, just feeling the wonderful machine, including the excellent Mitsu I, as an assurance that no matter how many 2nd handers there are in the world, there are still people with the spirit and passion to create the beautiful automotive tech we have today, is salve for the soul.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I will never reckon Saify, Toto and all others who could not agree with centurion to be part of a "gang." They are not even a group, for heaven's sake. They simply stand on the same side on this matter.
.

I gave my definition of gang and some examples of negative behaviour on a forum - all in general. I've mentioned this in other much older threads as well, so you can be sure it is not specific to the people who have posted in this thread - who you have listed.

If you want to bring names into it you can, but I prefer not to. I don't want any friction with any name that comes up. It is not my intention to go beyond plain concept alone, on this thread at least.

 

[hcsiow]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I'm not trying to make friends or enemies with you with this post. But think carefully - when you dismiss 2nd handers as hogwash, are you throwing away the pieces of a broken mirror simply because you see parts of yourself in the shards and hate the mirror for it?

You dismiss the talk about second handers then admit that one must consider exactly what the 2nd handers consider like the x-factor either to society or the opposite sex. You dismiss my theory but then admit pure evidence of second handedness....

Don't need to make friends or enemies, past the primary school level of my life. As I illuded to, you cannot see the shades of grey; no pure second handers or first handers (where did these terms pop out of?); we all 1 1/2 handers .
Your tenacity for argument come hell or highwater even in the face of perfectly reasonable logic bemuses me. Maybe the reason why you rub people the wrong way?:juggle:

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I will be considering doing my masters end of this year so that i can revive this thread next year.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Don't need to make friends or enemies, past the primary school level of my life. As I illuded to, you cannot see the shades of grey; no pure second handers or first handers (where did these terms pop out of?); we all 1 1/2 handers .
Your tenacity for argument come hell or highwater even in the face of perfectly reasonable logic bemuses me. Maybe the reason why you rub people the wrong way?:juggle:

You puzzle me. You can use cheem words like `tenacity' and phrases like `come hell or highwater' but still make errors (not typos) like `illuded' and wrong usage `tenacity for argument' ...

Very `prestigious' use of language if you ask me.

point of interest: you know what illuded means? It meant that you have deceived the forum with your post. If that's not a freudian slip, I think you meant `Alluded'

Sorry for being a Nazi... but bombastic language is quite hard to use properly, that's why I use singlish.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I will be considering doing my masters end of this year so that i can revive this thread next year.

Just go skip barber lah. Master of the track means - there is no bullshit to speed. You do everything to the laws of physics. It is a sport of integrity.

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I will be considering doing my masters end of this year so that i can revive this thread next year.

i join u also

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Just go skip barber lah. Master of the track means - there is no bullshit to speed. You do everything to the laws of physics. It is a sport of integrity.

Most definitely. Am bloody keen on this course.

i join u also

Steady Pom Pom.

 

[hcsiow]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

You puzzle me. You can use cheem words like `tenacity' and phrases like `come hell or highwater' but still make errors (not typos) like `illuded' and wrong usage `tenacity for argument' ...

Very `prestigious' use of language if you ask me.

point of interest: you know what illuded means? It meant that you have deceived the forum with your post. If that's not a freudian slip, I think you meant `Alluded'

Sorry for being a Nazi... but bombastic language is quite hard to use properly, that's why I use singlish.

typo..sorry, but exposes your prettiness ...oops pettiness. Nazis are far more subtle...you my friend are a sledgehammer.
You really are a rubber aren't you?

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

typo..sorry, but exposes your prettiness ...oops pettiness. Nazis are far more subtle...you my friend are a sledgehammer.
You really are a rubber aren't you?

I was not nit picking, my man.

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

everyone shud juz chill and relak one corner

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

everyone shud juz chill and relak one corner

Sar Lau is a good medicine for now. Perfect Timing.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

back to the topic

So the question is if Porsche can retain its world sports-car icon?

In my interpretation, the word pretender isnt exactly misused here tho it may sound a bit condescending. But mind you, we are talking bout benchmarking against an icon with strong history n legacy. So it's a natural process so to speak.

Why some if not many start saying Porsche is boring?
Simple answer : The shape hasnt revolutionized, the engine is still the non-melodic flat six.....whereas others have advanced to V8 V10 and V12...

But does it bother the car maker from Stuttgart that much?
Probably not...many of their customers hv moved to Ferrari, Lambo n Aston...We all know that but there are probably alot more fans out there who aspire to own a Porker ..... I call it Auto-Refill.

Porsche is getting challenged and it happens in just about every of their model line-ups. That's so apparent. GT-R is targetting the 997 Turbo. R8 is targeting the CarreraS ( some even say GT3 ). Corvette Z06 is targeting the GT3 and Turbo....The list goes on and on.

Be lucky that as consumers, we have plenty to choose from to suit your budget.