DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

[Racebred]

Dear all,

Rob is in town now, and I'm trying to schedule a meeting between him and members from BMWSG. Tonight, thursday night, for a dinner/ after dinner session.

DMS is a chip reflash from UK, fronted by Rob Young. Check out www.dmsautomotive.com. It is not a piggyback, but is a complete ECU map reflash, overriding your original, more conservative BMW stock map. There are some disussions about it in the engine performance folder, so you can get more feedback from there. Or alternatively, do a search with the search engine here. No hardware is installed.

A couple of members here have already installed theirs, with pretty positive results.

Those who would like to learn more, pls turn up for the meeting tonight. Those who wish to install one immediately, it can also be done, in minutes. Air, fuel, ignation, and vanos are tweaked for very very good results. Custom tuning is also available, especially those with heavy mods like supercharging.

Please call me Shawn at 96199100 to let me know if you're interested, and i'll let you all know the venue once it's confirmed.

A very very agaration ballpark figure for such a chip would be about the $2500 figure. Please do not quote me, and i am not a representative of him. It's a ballpark figure quoted here to give members an idea of what kind of price bracket we are looking at here.

 

[Racebred]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

do check out the "similar threads" section right at the bottom of this page, for other discussions about ECU tuning, and DMS.

this forum engine sibeh smart man..

 

[DreamDriver]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

I have always wanted to ask this: for cars with exactly the same (or even very similar) engine mods, what is there to stop one of them from paying and getting the program onto his car, then somehow download it and share it with his buddies? There must be some kind of barrier of entry to such specialist trades right? I don't quite believe that downloading the program from one car then uploading it to another is so difficult to do.

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

I have always wanted to ask this: for cars with exactly the same (or even very similar) engine mods, what is there to stop one of them from paying and getting the program onto his car, then somehow download it and share it with his buddies? There must be some kind of barrier of entry to such specialist trades right? I don't quite believe that downloading the program from one car then uploading it to another is so difficult to do.

Every ECU has a code just like pin numbers and most often these tuners will key in their own security pins where only he is accessible.

 

[DreamDriver]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

Every ECU has a code just like pin numbers and most often these tuners will key in their own security pins where only he is accessible.

Oh, this is interesting. Do you know if the PIN is set from factory, i.e. even to read the factory map you need a PIN?

What I still don't understand is, even if the tuner's program is PIN-protected, the PIN must still be stored somewhere or else how does the values get read and used? Since it's just electronics, I can always come up with a device to probe the ECU, cheating it into thinking that it's talking to the rest of the car that is using the map values and fish out the entire map, can't I?

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

Oh, this is interesting. Do you know if the PIN is set from factory, i.e. even to read the factory map you need a PIN?

What I still don't understand is, even if the tuner's program is PIN-protected, the PIN must still be stored somewhere or else how does the values get read and used? Since it's just electronics, I can always come up with a device to probe the ECU, cheating it into thinking that it's talking to the rest of the car that is using the map values and fish out the entire map, can't I?

The code is set by the ECU or Chip maker and each time you edit the software the code must tally for a successful retune.

If the tuner's laptop program has an additional security verification, he can always set a password. So other tuners cant enter to edit the maps. Unless he gives this password to you.

Well, if you have the program and can access to read the maps that will be great!

 

[DreamDriver]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

No lah, I where got so expert? I'm just curious about how things like that work mah.

I can relate to such things because of my (previous) computer security background. The thing about ECU map values is that, end of the day, you cannot really read-protect it, cos the values are constantly needed by the car to run! Yes, you may be able to write-protect it with a PIN, but I don't need to overwrite it; I just need to read it and copy it onto another car! How do you prevent that?

I mean, cost aside, I can always build a custom ECU harness with all the probes I want to cheat the ECU into thinking that it is sitting in a running car and get it to supply all the map values to me, right?

The only way I see how this might work, given the limited info I have now, is that somehow the PIN is factory-set, so nobody other than BMW itself knows it and can overwrite the stock map. Then, somehow, tuners can get access to this PIN for, say, my car; hence can use it to overwrite my stock map. Then, even when I can successfully harvest the tuned map values, it is no good to my buddies cos I don't have their ECU PINs to help them overwrite their stock map. But the assumptions here (i.e. only tuners, not even car owners, can get access to PINs) is not very likely to be true leh.

 

[Whisky_Tango]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

No lah, I where got so expert? I'm just curious about how things like that work mah.

I can relate to such things because of my (previous) computer security background. The thing about ECU map values is that, end of the day, you cannot really read-protect it, cos the values are constantly needed by the car to run! Yes, you may be able to write-protect it with a PIN, but I don't need to overwrite it; I just need to read it and copy it onto another car! How do you prevent that?

I mean, cost aside, I can always build a custom ECU harness with all the probes I want to cheat the ECU into thinking that it is sitting in a running car and get it to supply all the map values to me, right?

The only way I see how this might work, given the limited info I have now, is that somehow the PIN is factory-set, so nobody other than BMW itself knows it and can overwrite the stock map. Then, somehow, tuners can get access to this PIN for, say, my car; hence can use it to overwrite my stock map. Then, even when I can successfully harvest the tuned map values, it is no good to my buddies cos I don't have their ECU PINs to help them overwrite their stock map. But the assumptions here (i.e. only tuners, not even car owners, can get access to PINs) is not very likely to be true leh.

I understand where you are coming from but tuning(piggyback type) and flashing an ECU is totally different. When you flash an ECU, the map values in the Targets are changed permanently where is these values are the reference values the ECU will cross reference every second. And those standalone aftermarket ECU have the function to overwrite the Targets by the specialised tuners cos all come from the same source.

So for a stock ECU Target Values to be edited, a code or pin must be verified. Even if you can read off the targets but you still cant edit them unless you have access to it.

A piggyback ECU has its own ECU where the tuner has access to it. He can tune whatever values in this piggyback ECU where these values will fool the stock ECU. But the stock ECU Target Map Values is still stock and for whatever values tuned in the piggyback will all be cross reference to the stock ECU Targets and eventually the LTFT and STFT all get messed up.

In order to prevent the messed up of the LTFT & STFT, the Target Maps must be tuned.

Above is what I know and may not be 100% correct. Just sharing...

Cheers!

 

[DreamDriver]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

Ok, understand your explanation of difference between tuning (via piggyback) and flashing.

Actually my query was in the context of DMS' offering. From given description, it sounds like a reflash of stock ECU, not a replacement ECU. In that case, PIN or no PIN depends on whether stock ECU has that feature already, right?

So if I can read stock ECU map values before reflash, logically I should be able to read the new values after reflash and share them with my buddies, no? In fact if that's the case, other tuners like Hiop will also suffer the same vulnerability.

But if DMS' offering is a replacement ECU chip, then of course I cannot share my values with my buddies lah, since the chip is totally different.

 

[Racebred]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

if geeky teenagers can hack into the pentagon, then ecu is nothing. it's like buying fake dvd in usa. if its not available, then u can't buy it even though pirated versions exist elsewhere. i'll be waiting for the day someone local has the ability to pirate these maps. better sell cheap.

however, dms chip, is the only engine reflash map that can be customized on
the spot. chips like superchips, hiop, racing dynamics, dinon etc are reflashes too, but the tuners are sitting comfortably in germany or usa and wont bother to do these for you. the only way you can customise is by using a piggyback, or total standalone which is at least 3-4 times more expensive.

thats what makes dms unique currently.

however, customisation is only needed if heavy mods are done.

if anybody is interested in discussing it with rob tomorrow thursday night, give me a ring. he should be at the goodwood park hotel area having dinner i reckon. those who are certain they want it can bring some money or a chequebook and have it done on the spot.

 

[bogey_free]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

do anyone have any information on what kind of gain can the reflash do for a 318 valvetronic engine?

 

[TripleM]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

do anyone have any information on what kind of gain can the reflash do for a 318 valvetronic engine?

Not sure bout that but for M3..........370bhp vs 343bhp stock and the peak bhp is achieaved at 1500rpm lower than the stock peak. Cost is SGD2.5k...

 

[Racebred]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

318 valvetronic, (S$1800)- +10-12 bhp (not worth it in my opinion)

320 (695 pounds) - +18bhp

330 (695 pounds) - +27bhp

m3 (795 pounds) - to 370bhp

i'm not a DMS rep, just helping out members here.

 

[jaskin]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

How about the 325? How much more HP would I get?

 

[Racebred]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

I've just had my car done up. And promptly brought the qp up to KL for a run.

These are the values that have been changed in my qp ECU mapping.

1) Air/Fuel mix
2) ignition
3) cam timings (lift and duration)
4) throttle response
5) raise rpm
6) clutch/gearbox response

it gives me 38bhp, and about 30-40 Nm, peak torque is lowered by 400rpm, but torque pleateu is stretched from the original 6000+ rpm all the way to redline. redline is increased to 8100rpm with the last 250rpm used for gearchange. The car moves off from stationary much smoother, power delivery is very smooth, with increased pull from 4500rpm onwards. The 40bhp can be felt significantly in the car's overall run. Total damage: $3500. Owner: freaken happy

 

[rex7_vtec]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

Total damage: $3500. Owner: freaken happy

I can second that feeling!!!

 

[TobyNik]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

318 valvetronic, (S$1800)- +10-12 bhp (not worth it in my opinion)

320 (695 pounds) - +18bhp

330 (695 pounds) - +27bhp

m3 (795 pounds) - to 370bhp

i'm not a DMS rep, just helping out members here.

Bro

Sorry to bother you, but I probably represent a whole lot of 2.0L Valvetronic owners asking what other significant benefits do you know of after tuning by DMS for our rides like

- Torque
- Throttle response
- Gear shifts
- Etc..


I know, S$ 1800 for 10 to 12 BHP doesn't look like much but if there are other benefits gained after tuning, some owners may wanna go for it.

So, wonder if Rob has more information for us?

I have read about his works and the jobs done on the BM diesels are especially impressive. They can tune a 535D to have more bloody torque than a V10 M5!!!! Holy Sh*t!!!!


Thanks, dude!

Oh yes, now you found new motivation in your ride? Congrats!

Cheers!


Toby

 

[Racebred]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

I will ask Rob, in detail, what are the changes he made to the standard ECU program exactly. He showed me in his laptop the values he has changed and inputed into my car, and these values diectly corresponded to changes in the way the car is felt by the driver. I will post here once I have the answers.

To have an idea on how massively torquey his 535d is, imagine this. He's cruising at 80kmh with traction control off. With a sudden floor of the accelerator, the car stops moving and the rear wheels spin on the spot. On stationary launches, there are wheelspins all the way till 3rd gear.

People may complain that diesels dont rev hard. His rev to 5000rpm. The thing is in petrol engines, you have your torque from say 3000rpm to 6500rpm. You have a 3500rpm range of torque. In the diesel, you have more than 400 pound feet of torque from tickover, with a flat torque curve all the way to 5000rpm. You actually have more, or at least the same, range of revs to play with as the petrols. This is your advantage once your diesel ECU is properly tuned by an aftermarket tuner.

 

[TripleM]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

I've just had my car done up. And promptly brought the qp up to KL for a run.

These are the values that have been changed in my qp ECU mapping.

1) Air/Fuel mix
2) ignition
3) cam timings (lift and duration)
4) throttle response
5) raise rpm
6) clutch/gearbox response

it gives me 38bhp, and about 30-40 Nm, peak torque is lowered by 400rpm, but torque pleateu is stretched from the original 6000+ rpm all the way to redline. redline is increased to 8100rpm with the last 250rpm used for gearchange. The car moves off from stationary much smoother, power delivery is very smooth, with increased pull from 4500rpm onwards. The 40bhp can be felt significantly in the car's overall run. Total damage: $3500. Owner: freaken happy

Now you are making me drool......

 

[Racebred]

Re: DMS ECU Tuning - Rob Young in Town

for your m3, you should compare to NS's car. do a friendly drag or something. The lowering of rpm of peak torque is very good for everyday drivability too. I think it's lowered by 1400rpm. very substantial. 370bhp makes it more powerful than the CSL. Rob's leaving this friday. If you're not happy with the mod, Rob will return the money no questions asked. In fact, for many of us, we did not even pay when we drove off. Only when the car is certainly running well, owner is satisfied, then you can consider paying him. He's also very open about how and what exact codes are changed, and he'll show you his work on his laptop. contact him if you are interested.

btw i dont work for him, obviously.