Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

[michaeltan]

I mentioned a quandary before, that BMW marketing for its inline-6 I suspect is compromising the packaging of their cars, where a V6 would have given them much more room and engine toughness (no need so long crankshaft) .... let's take a look at their overhangs now.

As you probably already know, the 3- (E90) 5- (E60) series have cored VERY badly in terms of pedestrian protection in event of collision.

3-series: http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=3&id2=225

pedestrian protection was very poor

5-series: http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=4&id2=208

the car’s ability to protect pedestrians was dire

So, many manufacturers, including Toyota (GS, Camry, IS), Honda (civic, Legend), Nissan, Renault, Alfa (new 159) have designed their new cars to improve on the pedestrian safety perspective, by:

1) increasing the length of their front overhangs to create a buffer zone for pedestrian protection in front of the car, and

2) by using a 4-cylinder or a low profile V6, they have created some space between their engine bonnet and the engine itself to create a buffer there also. (see footnote also, below)

But both these features are opposite to BMW's `virtues'.

1) They boast a short front overhang saying that it promotes handling, but it kills pedestrians since the pedestrian will hit the hard engine without the luxury of a buffer zone of a longer overhang.

2) they market their I6 engine as the greatest form of engine, but it kills pedestrians as a I6 engine is fundamentally taller, and it is impossible to create that buffer zone (eg. the M3 E46 actually had to tilt the I6 to fit their engine bay!)

How can they overcome the quandary? Or, will they continue to compromise pedestrian safety if they decide that their customer demographics do not care too much about pedestrian safety in relation to driving enjoyment? Or, hopefully, is there a link anywhere which will show us a preview of BMW's engineering principles they will employ to solve the problem?

---------------------------
footnote:
Toyota's engine designed with pedestrian protection in mind:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toyota.co.jp%2Fjp%2Ftech%2Fnew_cars%2Fmarkx%2Fability%2Fpower_train%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Furthermore, new it adjusts to the hood which is designed, new designs also the surge tank, and the like by the fact that it makes the structure which guarantees clearance between the hood and the engine, the case of personal accident of 10001 it contributes to the shocking relief to the pedestrian.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

I fully understand your concern for the pedestrians, but is this design "flaw" unabiguously unique only to BMW?

 

[eggz]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

If improved pedestrian protection means to sacrifice having that grin on my face everytime I drive my bimmer, then "screw the pedestrians" I say. hahahahah

pedestrians should just look where they're going.

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

If improved pedestrian protection means to sacrifice having that grin on my face everytime I drive my bimmer, then "screw the pedestrians" I say. hahahahah

pedestrians should just look where they're going.

The BMW is not the only car that has bad pedestrial protection. most cars are like that. So practically we should not buy ferraris and lamborghinis cause they offer bad pedestrian protection? Sometimes i do not whether to laugh or reply. Hahaha..but i did laugh and reply so ...

And no matter how good ur pedestrian protection is, eventually its how hard you brake and manouever evasively. Even in a bad crash, a good car with even 5 star NCAP still kills a pedestrian. Practical? NO. All these are just meant to serve as a guide to safety implementations.

i think if i want to be responsible i would buy a GS300 when i go to serangoon road every saturday and sunday. since so many ppl cross the road without looking and we cant drive fast in that area, i think that car would offer the best protection to them. . Other than that area, i would use my BMW. PERIOD.

 

[Physicist]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Brother Michael,

I admire your command of the language and your lucid arguments but I think you should rest your case going against BMWs lah. Every individual car manufacturer has their set of priorities and objectives in mind when designing a car.

Such arguments is just wasting everyone's time.

Hey I like Lexus for its quiet cabin and comfort. No biggie even if it drives like a boat. I like BMW for that magical feel everytime I'm behind the wheel. No biggy even if the panels and rubber seals drop off sometimes.

I think its ok to like a car for what it is and not nick pick lah tio boh?

Its also akin to the comparison below lah...

You thinking RuHua is fugly as hell and Orh Lu Lu waiting to grab the chance and hit her with a one shot bong thats outta this world :yikess:

 

[jawzsg]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

When I was much younger, I was taught to look left, right and left again to ensure it's safe to cross and raise my hands as I cross so to let the drivers know my intention. Now, the folks mostly looked at their handphones, see the bus number that is pulling up to the bus-stop opposite and look around to ensure no traffic cops (especially under overhead bridge) and some didn't even realise they were crossing the road.

The previous case has probably something to do with this coz the judge ditched out that the driver was 75% at fault when she knocks over a pedestrain crossing the road less than 15m from the overhead bridge.

Making the cars harder would prove better so as to instill a little more sense of safety to most of the pedestrains today, especially if they know how painfully it is to kena knockz I think. Hence in this sense, no buffer zone in front is just great to enhance overall safety don't you think??? It discourages reckless road crossing mah.. no meh???

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

I fully understand your concern for the pedestrians, but is this design "flaw" unabiguously unique only to BMW?

It is NOT my concern for the pedestrians we're talking about here, but rather, how is BMW gonna solve their quandary.

They submitted their car for Euro NCAP testing. They have entered the contest, and therefore, subject to the penalties which the contest deals out. Ferrari, Lambo, Pagani, do not submit to NCAP testing, so they are proof of criticism.

And BMW is the first and most noteable company which marketing department boast of their short overhangs and their Inline 6 engine. Therefore, they are of special note. Every other company has done V6, and (Volvo has made a low profile I6 gonna launch soon) therefore have a straightforward path towards engineering solutions of pedestrian protection.

And this is a BMW forum. We're talking about BMW's quandary.

 

[BlackStealth]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Oh no, not again....... Guys lets not have another Lexus vs BMW again. I see it ending in a very negative light.

Michaeltan, you are not wrong in posting this topic. This is also not a judgement form by you but rather taken out from another source to show an opinion (in this case, against BMW) For this, no one should fault you.

BUT:

Based on the previous postings by you, it is also not wrong for forumers here to think that you do have something negative against BMW. I am not one that say you do, you may not, but your postings may have inadvertently done that. So, one cannot really blame the bmw forumers to have such attitude against you. Afterall, this forum is full of BMW lovers...human nature right?
So why not try a softer approach? maybe be a little more sensative - like posting something good then bad, then good..whatever? I don't and cannot tell you what to do.
No one can control your thoughts, but sensitivity can be adjusted.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

 

[pingman]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

michael. i think u can try to talk to the car manufacturer, this forum not car manufacture open one leh. maybe whatever car u think is good, the manufacturer can hire u as a part-time researcher. that will be great!

i m curious. since u know so much about cars. may i know why pedestrain protection? drive whatever car also will hit pedestrain what? once kena, regardless die or not, u get dermit points and fine or jail. protect what har?

pardon me for my ignorance. is there nothing else to reinvent any more in cars?

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Aiyo, i read all the responses..... and I wish to emphasize, I have no love for Lexus. If there is any love I have, it's for Honda and Mercedes. I am not doing this to slight BMW in favour of other car brands. I am doing this because these questions have to be asked, and answered or addressed in some way. I am doing this because it SHOULD BE DONE.

The reason why I post here, is that I wish to highlight and discuss, BMW's conflicting marketing pitch with the current legislative environment, and see and admire how a company like BMW, unique among all car companies, can preserve their sacred cows like I6 engine and short overhangs in the face of the ravages of new legislation.

Is is not interesting, to watch the marketing department squirm, their development engineers say ERRR AAAH ... just so as to reconcile the marketing pitch and honesty?

I would admire BMW to be honest and say something honest. But when your core marketing points conflict with the legislative environment, it's hard to be honest right?

Possible solutions:

1) BMW will go to the V6 world. Then journalists will sneer! Consumers who believe in the incredible smoothness of the I6 will doubt the wonderfulness of the V6, and BMW will lose some customers.

2) BMW will increase the front overhangs. Everybody will say Bangle sucks worse than before. Consumers who believe in the 50:50 balance will wonder whether it's still 50:50 or not. BMW will have to put the battery and some lead weight further back in the backside to preserve 50:50 balance. Increasing costs and weight, and compromising driver enjoyment.

3) BMW will make the nose higher. Everybody will comment that BMW follows Lexus design cues and say it looks ugly.

4) BMW will lower the engine and relocate oil sump and change to dry type, increasing costs dramatically.

5) BMW will be honest and say - our customers are the most important, and they place pedestrian safety below driver enjoyment, therefore, we will not pursue the pedestrian safety NCAP score. What will happen then? BMW will lose all their poseur customers, and left with the honest men who clearly state that pedestrians should watch themselves anyway. The world would condemn BMW.

6) BMW will keep quiet like now, but for people like me to raise difficult questions which I have done. And I will keep doing, hoping that a bunch of people will want to see BMW address these questions too.

It's all a political game, don't you see? The French have made Euro NCAP their pawn, but unfortunately for them, the Japanese take it seriously, but the Germans are too honest. Mercedes made their new S-Class so ugly to score higher in the pedestrian safety segment.

If BMW wants to compete with these car companies, the Euro NCAP pedestrian safety element forces them to be subject to the same design considerations as the other companies. Which is fair. BMW should exercise some brilliance to be better than them all things considered.

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Hey I like Lexus for its quiet cabin and comfort. No biggie even if it drives like a boat. I like BMW for that magical feel everytime I'm behind the wheel. No biggy even if the panels and rubber seals drop off sometimes.

I think its ok to like a car for what it is and not nick pick lah tio boh?

And why i've always been telling ppl about Alfa Romeos...hahaha....
I converted a fren over to the Alfa marque b4... from his E46... whooops....

It's just the feeling of being behind the wheel of an Alfa.. its so... hard to describe... the cars have.. soul
can i have that GTV6??? i promise i'll take care of her and cherish her many many

sorry... OT...
er.. yea.. pedestrian safety... yes yes.... important... buy something else.. a Renault..

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Pedestrian impact tests are here:

http://www.euroncap.com/content/test_procedures/pedestrian_impact.php

A series of tests are carried out to replicate accidents involving child and adult pedestrians where impacts occur at 40kph (25mph). Impact sites are then assessed and rated fair, weak and poor. As with other tests, these are based on European Enhanced Vehicle-safety Committee guidelines

I raise these questions in a public forum in order to raise public awareness. In some small small way, it will be googled and BMW may face pressure to answer these questions.

There are people far far far greater than me in automotive research. I am a technologist, some kind of bullshit guy when it comes to hardcore knowledge.

Pedestrian protection in the EuroNCAP sense, is their best approximation on the evaluation of the survivalibility of a pedestrian, adult or child, in the unfortunate event of a pedestrian impact.

There is much to re-invent in cars. I think that forcing BMW to come to terms and address this quandary, will spur them to make better cars. Shake them out of their soporific dullness, and finally find radical solutions to issues like these, in their own way.

Protectionism is bad. Same here. Don't protect BMW. Expose them to the most difficult situations, only then are heroes born.

michael. i think u can try to talk to the car manufacturer, this forum not car manufacture open one leh. maybe whatever car u think is good, the manufacturer can hire u as a part-time researcher. that will be great!

i m curious. since u know so much about cars. may i know why pedestrain protection? drive whatever car also will hit pedestrain what? once kena, regardless die or not, u get dermit points and fine or jail. protect what har?

pardon me for my ignorance. is there nothing else to reinvent any more in cars?

 

[rodders]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Wow seems like we're all potential killers whenever we drive our bimmers. Thanks for heads up Michael. Thanks for saving the world.

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

but.. but... but.... i love Inline6 engines......
i guess the thing is, BMW is not advertising their cars (or marketing) as safety oriented cars, their marketing focus is on the driving dynamics of the cars.

And that's their demographic, they are not going after safety ppl who bother so much about such stuff. The test results are all out for the buyers to decide for themselves what they want. If they want a safer car, go buy a REnault or a Volvo.

But BMW is targeting drivers who like to drive, who enjoy the feeling of their drives. So that's what their marketing tactics are going after. They are not misleading anyone here. If they are bluffing by saying their cars are safe for ppl who get rammed. then there's something wrong, and if they are hiding safety test results then there's something wrong, but they are not, and its up to the informed buyers to make their decisions on what they want. Make a decision with their wallets, want a safe car? go elsewhere

 

[pingman]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

thanks michael for ur detail info. really appreciate that. so surprise the test for this kinda things. do they test if the passenger can survive if he drive over a cliff? maybe see if the car can deploy its parachute or wings will be good technology. would like to see one of these soon.

dunno about u. i still love my bmw, especially its rear. how? i think the most if i got into pedestrain messup, i will hire a chauffeur to drive me around then.

thanks alot. i learnt something today...

 

[Ahbengdriver]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Wah...I read till tao gong gong ah.....

aiya...cannnot replace I6 with V6 leh. If BMW put on V6 liao next time I wont get a another BMW. I meant I will find alternate ways to protect pedestrains, such as attending a refresher ADT once every 6 months at Pasir Gudang, to learn how to SIAM pedestrains. Or maybe replace my stupid headlights with xenons so pedestrains can see AHBENG matachia coming their way from 1 miles out. the xenons will also throw a straight beam like BATMAN's logo being shown in teh skies. Anyone watched BATMAN BEGINS? That will warn all road users and ensure no one gets killed Do you think BMW will buy my suggestions?

 

[axl]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

My 2 cents:

1) As long as BMW maintains its I6 tradition..

2) As long as consumers continues to buy them, thus ensuring a healthy profit line...

It's fine right? I dunt see no quandry... anywhere. :|

EDIT: As long as regulations won't demand a min 4-star rating for pedestrain safety, I dunt see why things cannot remain status quo.

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

aiya...cannnot replace I6 with V6 leh. If BMW put on V6 liao next time I wont get a another BMW.

yes I expected that. And thus, the quandary which BMW is in.

And all of you are right:

A search at bmw.com for Pedestrian turns out:
http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=pedestrian+site%3Abmw.com&meta=
Your search - pedestrian site:bmw.com - did not match any documents

A search at toyota.com for Pedestrian turns out:
http://www.google.com.sg/search?as_q=pedestrian&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=toyota.com&as_rights=&safe=off
Results 1 - 3 of about 5 from toyota.com for pedestrian

A search at renault.com for Pedestrian turns out:
http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=pedestrian+site%3Arenault.com&meta=
Results 1 - 10 of 10 from renault.com for pedestrian

A search at daimlerchrysler.com for Pedestrian turns out:
http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=pedestrian+site%3Adaimlerchrysler.com&meta=
Results 1 - 10 of about 63 from daimlerchrysler.com for pedestrian

So BMW did not advertise for pedestrian safety at all. In fact, in the entire site, there is not a single mention of the word `pedestrian'.

So it seems that they do not want to address that issue. And that is their perogative. The question is, what when people ask?

So I will email them this, and any response, I will post here.

To: BMW Safety department
My name is Michael Tan, and I would like to know more about BMW's efforts in improving your pedestrian safety rating in the Euro NCAP index.
As you probably already know, the 3- (E90) 5- (E60) series have scored VERY badly in terms of pedestrian protection in event of collision.
3-series: http://www.euroncap.com/content/safe...?id1=3&id2=225
Quote: pedestrian protection was very poor

5-series: http://www.euroncap.com/content/safe...?id1=4&id2=208
Quote:the car’s ability to protect pedestrians was dire

So, many manufacturers, including Toyota (GS, Camry, IS), Honda (civic, Legend), Nissan, Renault, Alfa (new 159) have designed their new cars to improve on the pedestrian safety perspective, by allegedly:
1) increasing the length of their front overhangs to create a buffer zone for pedestrian protection in front of the car, and
2) by using a 4-cylinder or a low profile V6, they have created some space between their engine bonnet and the engine itself to create a buffer there also. (see footnote also, below)
I do not vouch for the accuracy of these statements, and from an outsider's perspective, this is what I `think' I know from my research on the internet.
But both these features are opposite to BMW's `virtues'.
1) BMW has mentioned that all their cars have a short front overhang saying that it promotes handling, but from my research, apparently it compromises pedestrian safety since the pedestrian will hit the hard engine without the luxury of a buffer zone of a longer overhang.
2) BMW markets the 6 cylinder inline engine as the greatest form of engine for the engine capacities which it sells the engines in, but from my research on the internet, it seems to compromise pedestrian safety as a I6 engine is fundamentally taller, and it is dificult to create that buffer zone (eg. the M3 E46 actually had to tilt the I6 to fit their engine bay!)
How does BMW plan to overcome the quandary? Or, will you continue to compromise pedestrian safety if you decide that their customer demographics do not care too much about pedestrian safety in relation to driving enjoyment? Or, hopefully, is there a link anywhere in BMW's website which will show us a preview of BMW's engineering principles you will employ to solve the problem?
Thank you for answering my questions.

 

[rodders]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Guess they have to redesign buses and lorries then.

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Guess they have to redesign buses and lorries then.

not to forget aeroplanes as well that R&R and BMW makes. What if an astronaut falls from the sky and the planes hits them ? Should they pad the nose with styrofoam. Then it will be safe. But on the other hadn the plane might not be able to take off ? So really there is a compromise. Sigh...

maybe this article will make more sense.

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=11412

Quote From Above Link

"But while the star ratings may look like an easy way to tell whether one car is safer than another, they don't tell the whole story and they need to be interpreted with care.

For a start, the cars tested by Euro NCAP are divided into nine groups by size and type – superminis, small family cars, large family cars and so on. The star ratings are only comparable within each group. Bigger, heavier cars will always survive better in any given accident than smaller, lighter ones, so while the Mini Cooper and old-shape BMW 5-series both score 25 in the front and side crash tests, the 5-series will cope better in most real-world accidents. The highest-scoring car so far tested is the Peugeot 1007, but it's likely that several big saloons and MPVs would be safer places to sit simply because there's more metal between you and the accident. There are more limitations when it comes to child safety: the Euro NCAP ratings apply only to the single specific combination of vehicle and child seat tested. A different child seat, or the same seat in a different vehicle, could produce very different results.
The simplistic star rating can also distort the relative merits of different cars. For instance, two cars with the same star rating can offer different crash performance: both BMW's Z4 and the now-superseded Mazda MX-5 are 'four star' cars, but the Z4's front/side impact score of 31 comfortably beats the older MX-5's score of 25. Conversely, two cars with different star ratings can offer quite similar protection. Mercedes added a seat belt reminder to its C-class which bumped it from four stars to five, even though the actual crash performance of the vehicle didn't change. The BMW 1-series and new VW Golf are two more cars to benefit from seat belt reminders, both achieving five stars instead of four as a result.

Another problem, and one which can only get worse, is that the tests are evolving all the time. New tests have been added since the programme began, and methodology has changed as the cars and the tests develop. So some older results, particularly those for pedestrian safety, are difficult to compare with the latest round of tests."

Cheers.