FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

[Fusion28]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Kenn

This PAM is my first & I'm not into watches. Only have myself to blame for not doing my homework prior.

I'm perfectly fine with Eddie being a watch trader.
Just be honest on the facts. If you are not the first owner, state so.
When I engage Eddie on the deal, was told he's the first owner & watch has been worn less than 10 times & have been in the safe for the past 2 years with remaining warranty of 1mth.

After some investigation, found out he close the deal in Paneristi on 21 July & I took over the watch on 28 July. Its the same watch we are referring to as the serial number dun lie. He started marketing the watch even before receiving it.

Only have myself to blame as I did not perform a 100% check on the watch as I trust his words. Only spotted some scratches on the case & to me at that moment, the watch looks decent. The whole deal was over in less than 20 mins.

When I reached home, I was admiring the watch & to my horror I realised there's stain on the inner crystal glass at the 10'clock marking.
Further inspection, I found deep scratch on the edge of the back case.
I have a bad feeling that the watch have been opened up before & started to have doubts on the watch.

Immediately contacted Eddie, was reassured by him that the watch is a genuine piece & those flaws mentioned was not know to him. Suggest that I sent the watch back to Hour Glass / Sincere for inspection & if the charges are not much he will pay for it. Then I question him on the warranty card as the name on it was not his. Told me that's his cousin name & the cousin helped him buy that watch.

Anyway, its already late evening Saturday & he's back in KL.
I went down to Hour Glass & Sincere both Taka & Marriot the next day.
Both advise me to get down to Richemont as they are the only Singapore Authorised Service Center for Panerai.

Check in the watch with Richemont on Monday. Richemont called the next day & told me warranty will not be honour as it's being Post dated. Watch is "E" series meaning Year 2002 & the COSC stated mfg date as well. Watch cannot be sold in Year 2005 Aug as stated.
Watch Master's Comment on the quotation which I found disturbing:
- Scratch on inner crystal (Replacement cost S$500++)
- Watch Opened by 3rd Party

Forward Quotation to Eddie for review. He commented on Richemont knowledge on Panerai watch & asked me to seek 2nd opinion at JW. Collected the watch back fm Richemont & head down to JW. There's nothing JW can do on the Panerai & was told Richemont is the only Service center that can "Operate" PAM.

Proposed to Eddie on buy back or refund S$500 for me to replace the crystal but he's keeping quiet till date.
Told him the watch was not what he has described but he argue I was given ample time to check on the watch.

Anyway I can't be bothered & have overcome the mental barrier of owning a timepiece that I do not know it's FULL history. The Person that sold the watch to Eddie got the PAM pre-owned as well & according to him no works have been done by him. He's not sure abt previous owners.

Thanks for reading my fustration.
I always have Good Faith in people & believe in Kama.
Just want to share my experience as I learnt it the hard way.

Fusion28,

I can understand your predicaments, but I am perplexed by your negative perception of Eddie being a trader. My thoughts:

• Those who collect watches will know that there are many traders for watches out there. Many buy to wear, only to flip out after a short while. Hence it becomes a case of trading watches, not just profiteering. AFAIK, Eddie does sell watches in thepurists too. Instead of labelling him as a trader who buys from a source and sells in another - he could be a collector who flips fast.
• Even if he "arbitrages" between a seller and a buyer, there is nothing wrong with that. Many used watch dealers are doing that. No difference from any reseller here sourcing for parts and selling it here at a profit. Do note that, however, the watch trade is a lot more sophisticated than car parts - in terms of valuations. So, research is key - rather than comparing prices.
• I think the main contention - as in your case - will be the facts presented - was there an intention to deceive? Cause while the "willing buyer willing seller" axiom stays true, the presumption should be no misrepresentation of facts. Good faith exists only with trust, and trust comes from fair play. Perhaps both parties might wanna clarify on this aspect.
• What was the case with your PAM? What did Richemont say?

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Eddie is a watch trader. He spot good deal in Paneristi Forum & re-sell here for some quick bucks. I bought fm him PAM25E just last mth @ S$6350 & was told he was the first owner & the watch is a "safe queen" blah blah blah. Turn out it's all but a big lie. Check into Richemont who is Panerai only Authorised Service Centre in Singapore & got a shock on the comments made on the watch. Found out abt Paneristi forum after I gotten the watch fm him. Going thru the forum & found the same watch with the same serial but the asking price was only US$3500. Wrote to the seller & confirm Eddie paid him the asking price. You guys just do your maths & you will know the profit involved. To cut story short, just be very careful when you deal with Eddie. I learnt my lesson for being ignorance & trust the words of a complete stranger & part my good money. Worst of all Eddie denied all these till today. It's all words against words now. Just share with you guys my deal with Eddie. Some might have good experience with him, but mine turn out to be otherwise. I have all the evidence & facts, yet just be'cos of a couple of hundreds you can see thru 1 person.

Hey buddy,

You met me personally with your dear wife and beautiful baby and checked the watch for half hour or more.

Everything seems ok and fine.

You paid and left a happy man.

After almost a day later, you called me and said the watch has been open before, you seen that the crystal needs to be replaced, marks here and there, etc...

Demanded that I take back the watch or give you back a S$1000.

I sold you the watch in good faith, you checked and you were happy.

To tell you personally, that night, I couldnt even sleep well... I was so afraid the next call you were going to make was to tell me the watch stop moving.

I have sold some of my personal collection here and some along the way in other watch related forums.

All who bought from me were happy. I sell them good and most importantly affordable as they are pre-owned.

I have sold 2 GPs to a dear friend and forumer here & today he is one of my best friend here. Real steady bugger

Please understand and look at both sides of the story...

You go into any watch shop car shop, home AV shop...

you check, you pay and then later you tell them you want your $ back... do the math.

I am a nice guy but every mail you shoot me demanded I pay you back a large portion of the $ and you keeping the watch...

On the contrary, if you would have said, I want to return the watch & am prepared to take a small "hit", the tables would have turned & I would have gave you a complete refund or swap you another piece off my collection.

My perspective is simple, I handed the watch to you beautifully, why has it got to come to this?

also point 5. Scratches on the inner side of the crystal... while it is almost impossible to scratch the outer side of the crystal without substantial force, the inner side crystal scratches remains a big mystery ?? to me

not sure why when you checked the watch for half hour, you didnt see anything wrong with it and all was fine

,

eddie

p/s: yes, if you need to know, i have 3 PAM 25s.. no I am not a dealer... just a crazy watch nut

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Fusion28,

I can understand your predicaments, but I am perplexed by your negative perception of Eddie being a trader. My thoughts:

• Those who collect watches will know that there are many traders for watches out there. Many buy to wear, only to flip out after a short while. Hence it becomes a case of trading watches, not just profiteering. AFAIK, Eddie does sell watches in thepurists too. Instead of labelling him as a trader who buys from a source and sells in another - he could be a collector who flips fast.
• Even if he "arbitrages" between a seller and a buyer, there is nothing wrong with that. Many used watch dealers are doing that. No difference from any reseller here sourcing for parts and selling it here at a profit. Do note that, however, the watch trade is a lot more sophisticated than car parts - in terms of valuations. So, research is key - rather than comparing prices.
• I think the main contention - as in your case - will be the facts presented - was there an intention to deceive? Cause while the "willing buyer willing seller" axiom stays true, the presumption should be no misrepresentation of facts. Good faith exists only with trust, and trust comes from fair play. Perhaps both parties might wanna clarify on this aspect.
• What was the case with your PAM? What did Richemont say?

great summary bro... you the man

your insights on watches are super.. my guru ler

i am no longer going to sell any of my personal collection here anymore...

dont want to get into the one case like the above, really puts me off

'willing buyer & willing seller'...

just to come back and later ask me for more $... sian

thanks and happy week ahead to all.

cheers,

eddie

 

[kenntona]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Points of contention:

1. "Just be honest on the facts. If you are not the first owner, state so. When I engage Eddie on the deal, was told he's the first owner & watch has been worn less than 10 times & have been in the safe for the past 2 years with remaining warranty of 1mth." "The Person that sold the watch to Eddie got the PAM pre-owned as well & according to him no works have been done by him. He's not sure abt previous owners." Obviously there are some explanations needed here...... Eddie?
2. "......I realised there's stain on the inner crystal glass at the 10'clock marking. Further inspection, I found deep scratch on the edge of the back case." "...... was reassured by him that the watch is a genuine piece & those flaws mentioned was not know to him." "Only have myself to blame as I did not perform a 100% check on the watch as I trust his words. Only spotted some scratches on the case & to me at that moment, the watch looks decent. The whole deal was over in less than 20 mins." "Told him the watch was not what he has described but he argue I was given ample time to check on the watch." Grey area. I am trying to be fair here. On one hand, did the buyer check properly? Trust is not an excuse for ignorance, especially in used watches transactions. Even if the buyer had bought it from Hour Glass or Sincere or Cortina, the check on physical attributes have to be thorough, and IN THE SHOP. On the other, did the seller misrepresent the condition (for instance, some sellers specify "slight scratches" others "like NIB") or aim to deceive? What was described?
3. "......warranty will not be honour as it's being Post dated. Watch is "E" series meaning Year 2002 & the COSC stated mfg date as well. Watch cannot be sold in Year 2005 Aug as stated." Not exactly true. Many watches are sold with undated papers. Richemont is trying to play tricks here and shud off some responsibilties here. Honestly.
4. "Watch Opened by 3rd Party" No way anyone could tell, unless it was opened at the point of purchase. Seller could have gotten it as it was. No way the buyer could have known. Not a strong point to contend with.
5. "......if the charges are not much he will pay for it." "Scratch on inner crystal (Replacement cost S$500++)" "Proposed to Eddie on buy back or refund S$500 for me to replace the crystal but he's keeping quiet till date." Perhaps a middle ground can be reached here.

My point is this - I am not sure what exactly transpired, but buying a used watch is not as easy as we thought. I myself have traded few watches, and as a buyer, I will seek second opinion from consignment agents. As a seller, I will disclose as much info, but only as required. For instance, my acquisition cost on the watch is a sensitive issue, and I would choose to be silent on that (every buyer's discount from agent is different). As for condition, I am a watch lover, so no issue in that. As for transacted price, it is very subjective, given the condition and supply situation.

I think there is a middle ground that could be reached in this case. Hopefully you two will arrive at an amicable resolution.

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Hey buddy,

You met me personally with your dear wife and beautiful baby and checked the watch for half hour or more.

Everything seems ok and fine.

You paid and left a happy man.

After almost a day later, you called me and said the watch has been open before, you seen that the crystal needs to be replaced, marks here and there, etc...

Demanded that I take back the watch or give you back a S$1000.

I sold you the watch in good faith, you checked and you were happy.

To tell you personally, that night, I couldnt even sleep well... I was so afraid the next call you were going to make was to tell me the watch stop moving.

I have sold some of my personal collection here and some along the way in other watch related forums.

All who bought from me were happy. I sell them good and most importantly affordable as they are pre-owned.

I have sold 2 GPs to a dear friend and forumer here & today he is one of my best friend here. Real steady bugger

Please understand and look at both sides of the story...

You go into any watch shop car shop, home AV shop...

you check, you pay and then later you tell them you want your $ back... do the math.

I am a nice guy but every mail you shoot me demanded I pay you back a large portion of the $ and you keeping the watch...

My perspective is simple, I handed the watch to you beautifully, why has it got to come to this?

also point 5. Scratches on the inner side of the crystal... while it is almost impossible to scratch the outer side of the crystal without substantial force, the inner side crystal scratches remains a big mystery ?? to me

not sure why when you checked the watch for half hour, you didnt see anything wrong with it and all was fine.

,

eddie

 

[Fusion28]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Kenn
I'm not trying to run away fm my responsibility for not checking the watch thoroughly.
The watch Eddie sold me is just not what he mentioned.
I have proven my case & do not want to dwell on it anymore.
Thanks for the mediation. Guess there will be no resolution fm Eddie on this deal. I have not been able to speak to him & he has stop replying my last mail since 4 Aug.
Only consolation, the watch is a genuine PAM!

Eddie
You should know I'm not a fussy buyer during our brief encounter with my whole family! S$6350 is not a small amt or huge amt here. I just wanted a fair deal & my last proposal is I'm going to keep the watch anyway & I'm not demanding you pay me back S$1000 based on Richemont Quotation as the remaining $400+ are actually maintenance on the watch.

Point I want to make is the watch you sold me is not what you mentioned it to be.
Just don't feel good with the watch & I'm even willing to do a Top up & get another piece fm you. However, no response at all fm you.
Just need you to take a look at the watch again & satisfy urself on the condition I mention to you. Just admit on the history of the watch & we can move forward. 1mth of waiting is enuff for me. By sharing what I gone thru in the forum, I'm prepared not to get any resolution fm you anyway. Cheers & peace out!

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

1. Yes, I am the owner. The watch I sold to you belong to me. I stress again, I am not a dealer.

2. I descibed the condition of the watch in good faith and sincerity. If it was not, you would have found out otherwise upon inspection and the deal would not have gone through.

3. Purchased, new on stock. Richemont is denying because they do not want to service you a warranty.

4. It was never open before it was handed over. Period.

5. I cannot give you $ back as that is not my principle of trade. I can send you a PANERAI brand new strap which cost S$ 450 if it will make you happy.

Rgds,

eddie

 

[Fusion28]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Eddie
I give up. Till now you still want to deny the fact you are not the first owner.
Gotten confirmation fm Paul Clarkson on the deal with you & the serial on the watch proves everything.
Warranty card date stated 23 Aug 05. If you are really the first owner, trust you can proposed to get Richemont KL to service for the "flaw" I mention, why didn't you offer me that solution. Sure you have the receipt fm AD to prove to Richemont.

Anyway, thanks for your offer, it's not going to make both of us happy.
Do not want to dwell on the deal anymore.
I'm happy I can afford to pay that kinda money to learn more on Panerai watch & to know a person.
Cheers!

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Eddie
I give up. Till now you still want to deny the fact you are not the first owner.
Gotten confirmation fm Paul Clarkson on the deal with you & the serial on the watch proves everything.
Warranty card date stated 23 Aug 05. If you are really the first owner, trust you can proposed to get Richemont KL to service for the "flaw" I mention, why didn't you offer me that solution. Sure you have the receipt fm AD to prove to Richemont.

Anyway, thanks for your offer, it's not going to make both of us happy.
Do not want to dwell on the deal anymore.
I'm happy I can afford to pay that kinda money to learn more on Panerai watch & to know a person.
Cheers!

I thought I already offered you a solution and a resolution...

Why you keep coming back to "screw" my thread, cant you learn to use the PM function....

1. I am giving you a brand new strap worth S$450. You can sell it and use the $ in whatever you want to do..

2. The watch was handed to you in the condition I subscribed it to be. Anyless, I dont think you would have bought it. It was your own judgement.

I have done the deal with you in good faith.

Reverse the scenario, I buy the watch / car from you, check, re-check... all ok, tomorrow, I call you....

refund S$1000 (watch) / refund S$10,000 (car)

I stress & restress again, if the watch was not perfect, you would have taken it..

Anyway, my offer to you still stand despite you coming here posting & screwing me.

PM me you address, I will send the strap to you.

Sorry, cash I cannot do... Its just not a matter of principle.

Rgds,

eddie

 

[totoseow]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Till now you still want to deny the fact you are not the first owner.
Gotten confirmation fm Paul Clarkson on the deal with you & the serial on the watch proves everything.

Eddie, perhaps you could clarify this point. i think thats what is more important at to him now.

 

[porsche78]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

i think in order to preove that eddie is not a watch dealer and that he is the first owner of the watch he can prove it by taking his purchase receipts to show that he is the first owner of the watch and not a dealer.

As for fusion maybe he can tak some pictures of the watch and post it here for all bros to see the watch condition and the flaws. Fusion not screwing anyone's thread but he his just wants to warn others.

cheers

 

[porsche78]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

i think in order to preove that eddie is not a watch dealer and that he is the first owner of the watch he can prove it by taking his purchase receipts to show that he is the first owner of the watch and not a dealer.

As for fusion maybe he can tak some pictures of the watch and post it here for all bros to see the watch condition and the flaws. Fusion not screwing anyone's thread but he just wants to warn others.

cheers

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Eddie, perhaps you could clarify this point. i think thats what is more important at to him now.

Hi Toto,

Great, I appreciate your inputs, the watch is mine.

Made a few trips within the family and in the end decided to sell it.

Best regards,

eddie

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

I am serious about what I sell to others and allow them to inspect the watch throughly before buying

At no point I force a person into buying the watch.

Items are genuinne and sold in good faith.

If you can prove me otherwise, please dont buy the item.

"Willing seller & buyer"

Anyone who wants to buy my PAM 24, please let me know and if the watch is not as per what I described can get it for FREE.. beat that

cheers,

eddie

p/s: This will be my last piece sold here. I am not a trader and in no means shld put up request to pin all my receipts here... you want IRB to come whack me...LOL! next time you sell your spare part, pls put up receipts so that i know how much you spend on you car...

also, porsche 78, your idea doesnt work.. If I buy the watch, bash it up. post it here, then get a refund.... (i dont know what happens to the watch when it leaves my possession)
ok, sorry OT... its Saturday... chill

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

May I ask with all due respect that this thread is not OT.

I have offered a very sincere resolution to Fusion28. (even though I know it is none of my fault and I am going beyond) If he wishes to take it up with me privately.

On a seperate subject matter, I have bought alot of mod parts from taikors and sifus here... some come better than expected, some less but in the end I am still happy.

A watch is a watch. A part is a part...

The point of contention is - he was happy when he checked and bought it

The point that he is try to make - refund part of the $ and he still keeps my watch. Lousy as it claims to be.

The point of great mystery - how can scratches be there when it was not there at the point of delivery after serious and grave inspection.



To share with all those who are concerned, here are some pictures of the watch he bought 2 days before delivery..

See if you can spot anything wrong with it.

I am a responsible forummer and seller.

The good guy ahem...

Like I said and the offer will always be open.

I am selling my PAM 24 in great sincerity and good faith and if you can spot any lesser of the pam 24 that I am selling. It will be yours for free.

Please do not OT my thread, there is always a PM function.

Please put yourselves in my shoes.

Please dont OT my sales and thread...

 

[gp]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Interesting tread. Fusion28, is this the watch? Is the serial number as stated? I noticed some of the photos posted by Eddie is the same as that by Paul Clarkson...
*** Paneristi Collector's Market ***

 

[Peterpan]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Interesting tread. Fusion28, is this the watch? Is the serial number as stated? I noticed some of the photos posted by Eddie is the same as that by Paul Clarkson...
*** Paneristi Collector's Market ***

Oh ya, some of the pictures look alike huh?

 

[hetraa]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

one of yr brothers is called Paul Clarkson?

Hi Toto,

Great, I appreciate your inputs, the watch is mine.

Made a few trips within the family and in the end decided to sell it.

Best regards,

eddie

 

[hamann]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

Hi eddie and all bros,

Im very low profile in this forum and its So sad to hear people are highjacking your thread and ruining your reputation

To all forumers in BMW.SG

I have bought many watches from EDDIE before and even sold some of my collection to him. Eddie even became my friend and i dont see any problem with trading with him.

I personnally think he is a steady guy and bro!

Im a business man. so everyone have to earn! even people here buy parts from ebay and resell to fellow brothers here also have to earn right?

If its the truth. then i think even if he bought the watches from other people and resell it at a higher price ,its HUA YI pardon me?pardon me?pardon me? GUAN (meaning its the mutual agreement) and if you are happy in the first place and paid for it. but if there is some problems you can actually resolve it peacefully with eddie

Im netrual here, but things can be solved not by hi-jacking this thread. actually the buyer can call him directly or PRIVATE massage eddie to solve the problem

I m sure there is a SOLUTION!

But please spare a thought for other people,imagine if you are the seller and you face some problems and then i ruin yr reputation. how would you feel?

So i hope all this can be resolve peacefully :singsing:

cheers.....................hamann

Hey buddy,

You met me personally with your dear wife and beautiful baby and checked the watch for half hour or more.

Everything seems ok and fine.

You paid and left a happy man.

After almost a day later, you called me and said the watch has been open before, you seen that the crystal needs to be replaced, marks here and there, etc...

Demanded that I take back the watch or give you back a S$1000.

I sold you the watch in good faith, you checked and you were happy.

To tell you personally, that night, I couldnt even sleep well... I was so afraid the next call you were going to make was to tell me the watch stop moving.

I have sold some of my personal collection here and some along the way in other watch related forums.

All who bought from me were happy. I sell them good and most importantly affordable as they are pre-owned.

I have sold 2 GPs to a dear friend and forumer here & today he is one of my best friend here. Real steady bugger

Please understand and look at both sides of the story...

You go into any watch shop car shop, home AV shop...

you check, you pay and then later you tell them you want your $ back... do the math.

I am a nice guy but every mail you shoot me demanded I pay you back a large portion of the $ and you keeping the watch...

On the contrary, if you would have said, I want to return the watch & am prepared to take a small "hit", the tables would have turned & I would have gave you a complete refund or swap you another piece off my collection.

My perspective is simple, I handed the watch to you beautifully, why has it got to come to this?

also point 5. Scratches on the inner side of the crystal... while it is almost impossible to scratch the outer side of the crystal without substantial force, the inner side crystal scratches remains a big mystery ?? to me

not sure why when you checked the watch for half hour, you didnt see anything wrong with it and all was fine

,

eddie

p/s: yes, if you need to know, i have 3 PAM 25s.. no I am not a dealer... just a crazy watch nut

 

[eddie]

Re: FS : PANERAI - PAM 24. Latest I series. The last of my collection....

one of yr brothers is called Paul Clarkson?

fo full details, please meet me at TEMPUS, i can give everyone a speech if required....

FOC Yes, I will be at the PANERAI counter... #1 fan


its a very long story but a very simple one.... discussion here is not the right place... as you can see, its just spiralling out of proportions with more and more speculations...

I am a sincere bugger.... all kopi / teh on me at TEMPUS.

I will be with my Panerai brothers from Thailand / OZLand / Indonesia / MYS and SG.

Cheers,

eddie

p/s: btw, i attached pictures so that you all can see... Is there anything wrong with the watch......?????