track driving school

[louis]

so i've read in another thread that one of the best mods to help bring down my lap times is professional training with an instructor.

does anyone know how much such a course would cost me and how many sessions are involved? also, does anyone have any contacts? i figured why pay good money for a BBK and void my BMW warranty when i can start with something basic like learning how to shift gears and launch properly instead.

please don't suggest PML's ADT. their cars are not similar to mine, plus the objectives of the ADT is abit different from what i'm looking for.

cheers

 

[TripleM]

Re: track driving school

You hv a good point but still Yes n No , IMO with regard to some handling upgrade.

First of all, I think there isnt really a well established track school here. While ADT aint relevant to you in this case, at times we hv seen occasional events organized and conducted by professional drivers such as Dennis Lian and Vincent.
They aren't cheap and you hv to use your car. But I guess that's the good thing too in order to achieve your objectives. So just watch out on motoring event if any or try to get in touch with these two guys wherever possible.

Now back to the peformance upgrades.
Again, driver skill is important...Some decent upgrades are equally important at least the basic ones first to start you off.

If u ask me...
I think it's perfectly fine to get a good handling set up for your car even you are newbie to tracking. I'd recommend some uprated brakes first (pads,ss line and brake fluid) , followed by suspension/anti roll bar. No need to go BBK route just yet.

From there, slowly explore the limit of your car, your driver limit potential too and then decide on what you want next. Talk to a few people and you will get the idea.
Actually, the only way to improve one's track skill is to participate in that event many many times. Get an experienced one to sit with you to learn the line,braking etc.

Bottomline is, some basic mods are essential to get you started and if u want to do it...I suggest you start with the handling mods first, then do up some engine work later. Trust me, it's not easy to explore the full potential of our stock cars sometimes.
And for a Z4 2.5, it's one helluva car to beat on the track, seriously!
If u hv seen the video of Z4 vs Boxter by Tiff in 5th gear, u will know what I mean.

Cheers

 

[Geoff Ang]

Re: track driving school

hey louis,

i agree with pak jack about having some basic mods done before u track... for me i have tracked my stock car before and after, all em mods... i have learned that with the mods (bbk, handling package, etc...)

i am better able to make the turns and exploit the track with confidence... its all about slow in... fast out in sepang.... and confidence on track is very important.... knowing that ya car has all the required equipment to handle the moves u are gonna be making... that to me is the most important bit.... cause before with a stock setup...
i was not able to enjoy a proper track day as my brakes will fade after 3-4 hot laps and that becomes very very tiresome... IMO... BBKs are mandatory on track!

knowing how to take the track and your cars abilities....it's all about experience... i have tracked sepang around 8-9times... and i have gotten better every time... having a seasoned trackie with u to guide u on the lines and brake points is a cheap start....

i am also keen to sign up with denis lian when he starts his lessons... but until then... i will DIY...

g

 

[Physicist]

Re: track driving school

so i've read in another thread that one of the best mods to help bring down my lap times is professional training with an instructor.

Since yours is a stick shift, you may wanna perfect the method of downshifting and blipping of throttle ala heel and toe before considering the hardware modifications.

You don't need an instructor to teach you how to do it. Practice is the best instructor.

Someone once told me its better to start without the brakes ie blip throttle and downshift to accelerate on a straight road. Once you perfect the shift (no jerks), move on to the tapping of brakes followed by blipping and downshifting on a straight road. Then you move on to the corners and so forth.

Sounds fun but watch the gear box man :yikess:

 

[m3magic]

Re: track driving school

Well, I think my views are a bit different from Jack and Geoff.
I believe one should first learn to explore the car, stock, to its upper limits, before starts modding. Once you understand your car and your own short-comings, go for the mods and you will learn and appreciate it much more along the way.

Well, the other argument is that, from others experience, for example, if you know the brakes is the weakest link, you should get it sorted out first before you go on the track. Nothing wrong with that argument. But than I think you will loose out a bit on the learning experience.

Your Z4 is a very capable car and the 3L version did just 8 secs south of the M3 in ‘ring. Say if you drive your stock Z on Sepang, and you get consistent 2’55; your instructor, as a benchmark, take your car and can do 2”45, that’s mean you have 10 sec to improve in just your driving skills. Once you have done enough practice, you achieve consistent, say … 2”50, you do your mods, than you re-learn the car, and after some practice, you can do 2”45, than I think along the way, you would have learnt lots.

Anyway, just my own twisted views.

For pro training, I don’t know of any credible ones available in Spore or M’sia; you can go Mt Cotton in Australia for Porsche training. A few of us here, including many of our invited guests at last track day if you remember, took private training from our local pros Ringo and Dennis. I think nowadays Ringo is too busy opening up China market for BMW; I think Dennis Lien still will conduct such course. If you can find some 6 to 9 interested participants, I can help tie you up with either Ringo or Dennis. But be prepared to pay in range of around S$1,600-1,800 range. They will close the entire track (Sepang), walk each turn with you, point out the braking point, apex, how to take each turn, make you do each turn again and again, point out your mistakes, encourage you and build up your confidence and it is a whole day event. And yes, you use your own car!

 

[louis]

Re: track driving school

NS,

so does this mean i should already be proficient in skills like heel and toe, correcting oversteer, understeer, launching etc before going for such courses?

learning about the braking points and different apices of sepang is well and good, but i would like to learn some skills that i can take away and use on any track i go to as well.

anyone else interested?

 

[m3magic]

Re: track driving school

Well, I think my views are a bit different from Jack and Geoff.
I believe one should first learn to explore the car, stock, to its upper limits, before starts modding. Once you understand your car and your own short-comings, go for the mods and you will learn and appreciate it much more along the way.

Well, the other argument is that, from others experience, for example, if you know the brakes is the weakest link, you should get it sorted out first before you go on the track. Nothing wrong with that argument. But than I think you will loose out a bit on the learning experience.

Your Z4 is a very capable car and the 3L version did just 8 secs south of the M3 in ‘ring. Say if you drive your stock Z on Sepang, and you get consistent 2’55; your instructor, as a benchmark, take your car and can do 2”45, that’s mean you have 10 sec to improve in just your driving skills. Once you have done enough practice, you achieve consistent, say … 2”50, you do your mods, than you re-learn the car, and after some practice, you can do 2”45, than I think along the way, you would have learnt lots.

Anyway, just my own twisted views.

For pro training, I don’t know of any credible ones available in Spore or M’sia; you can go Mt Cotton in Australia for Porsche training. A few of us here, including many of our invited guests at last track day if you remember, took private training from our local pros Ringo and Dennis. I think nowadays Ringo is too busy opening up China market for BMW; I think Dennis Lien still will conduct such course. If you can find some 6 to 9 interested participants, I can help tie you up with either Ringo or Dennis. But be prepared to pay in range of around S$1,600-1,800 range. They will close the entire track (Sepang), walk each turn with you, point out the braking point, apex, how to take each turn, make you do each turn again and again, point out your mistakes, encourage you and build up your confidence and it is a whole day event. And yes, you use your own car!

 

[louis]

Re: track driving school

Geoff and Jack,

i see your point of view and i actually pre-ordered some BBKs as you guys know, but i'm not too happy with my BBK "sponsor" so i'm thinking of scrapping the whole BBK thing.

however, i do share NS' view that it might be prudent and perhaps more economical as well to learn to fully exploit my car before upgrading the parts. i still have one year of my BMW warranty left anyway, so why not mod the driver this year while waiting for warranty to run out?

 

[Welbo]

Re: track driving school

I firmly believe in perfecting Heel-Toe technique first if u are driving manual car. I am still trying to perfert this skill but alas still not too good in it. I am still far from smooth doing heel-toe for most of the corners in sepang. If u can't heel-toe smoothly, the car will not be smooth and it will break the rythmn.

I am fortunate to sit in Weng's GT3 and Chris M3 (manual) before in Sepang and the way they heel-toe are almost like second nature. When the down shift before the corners, it is so smooth that u feel like u are in a fully automatic cars! I will say the feeling is even better than an automatic gear car. In addition, from 5th gear they will heel-toe to 4th then 3rd then 2nd before entering the corners, amazing! Thats how good they are and their timing is fantastic.

Cheers!

 

[piggyboyz]

Re: track driving school

Louise,

If u want to leant about car control like heel and toe and stuff like that, u can check with Pasir Gudang or contact AAS.

I picked up my heel and toe skill from AAS's defensive driver training. It was like 15 years back but i still see the course being conducted in the highway magazine.

Also u may think that ADT is irrelevant to u but then i must say that it's part of building up and no one learn about tracking without car control.

To me, u need to be able to control the car before u even start tracking. Yes, a ADT does not teach u how to take proper cornering line but it teach u to control the car when it start to take it's own path and u, being in command of the car, will be able to bring it back. End of the day at ADT or IDT, u realised that all the exercise is about car control.

Learning about the apex and line in track is chicken feet, a matter of remembering where is the marker to brake, turn and power out but the more important thing is "what if..... "

In a dedicated track training, u not only learn about line and apex, but also about pushing it to higher speed every time u take the same corner until the threshold of the car. This is where car control comes in, so u know the corrective action like when the tail snaps or the car understeer, what is the immediate corrective action, and to this, i still think the BMW Driver Training gave the best training.

But then again, u decide what u want, i think a lot of comments here for u to thinker over liao...

Good luck....

 

[Racebred]

Re: track driving school

i always believed in racing what you can bring there. If you can only afford say engine mods but no money for brakes, then drive accordingly. If you only have suspension mods but no engine mods, then drive accordingly. If you can only afford street tyres, then drive accordingly.

As long as you dont exceed the limits of any part of the car, the driver's skill, or the track conditions, then you can have fun at the track and nothing will happen to you.

Personally, when I'm in Sepang, and I'm such a pig that i can't be arsed to remove my spare wheel to lighten my car, then I will drive accordingly. Sometimes it's too hot, and i'd rather have my aircon on, then i lose out on the power and i drive accordingly. Sometimes my tyres are overheating too much on a hot day with pressure too high, i just adjust my driving, if i'm too lazy to change my pressure. Different tyre temperature and tyre wear neccisitates different racing lines in sepang.

bottom line is, whatever car you have, you drive it. Mods are completely optional. I believe even if you have 1000bhp, but only a 318i brakes, you can still track safely if you dont exceed the lowest limit.

The next limit is track condition. Some ppl believe that it's more dangerous to track in the rain, and many ppl sit out the session. I say, just drive slower. If the track limit is not breached, nothing will happen too.

Driver limit is also important. If you FEEL that you're going too fast, braking too late for turn 1, even if the track condition allows, even if your car is a supercar, then dont exceed that human limit. Drive inside your comfort level. Coz if you dont feel comfortable negotiating the turn5/6 bend, even if your car can handle, you may still spin out into the gravel coz the confidence is not there.

One way to increase that confidence is to go for these track attack courses, where an instructor will show you how to drive your car at the car's limit, and in such a way to fully exploit the track's limit too. Once your own drivers confidence limit is increased, your lap times will naturally drop.

I attended Ringo's course before with some bros here. It's an introductory course, so a lot of tuition was given to the track layout, and braking and turning points. One should understand where one stands in his personal "car control", "understanding of car dynamics", and attend a suitable course. If one is very well versed in car control and understands how minute braking, throttle, and steering responses translates into car behaviour, and instinctly knows how to perform recovery actions, then one should go for a more intensive track attack course where the instructor really pushes you to go faster and faster and faster until you hit the absolute limit.

so do know your stuff, where you stand, what sort of courses are available, which to choose appropriately, and you might be able to enjoy sepang on that different level.

Locally, the more well known instructors are ringo and denis. the former being more gentle and the latter being more hardcore. fees are usually not less than 1k, and sessions are scheduled ad hoc. hope that helps.

 

[shaolin]

Re: track driving school

I would be very keen to take on a track driving course.
*BUMPbump* Anybody else?
I'll start the list:

PROFESSIONAL DRIVER TRAINING

1. Louis
2. Shaolin
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

May I also suggest that we keep the class down to no more than 8 cars.

NS,

so does this mean i should already be proficient in skills like heel and toe, correcting oversteer, understeer, launching etc before going for such courses?

learning about the braking points and different apices of sepang is well and good, but i would like to learn some skills that i can take away and use on any track i go to as well.

anyone else interested?

 

[Shaun]

Re: track driving school

so i've read in another thread that one of the best mods to help bring down my lap times is professional training with an instructor.

Hi Lous, IMO the best route to lower lap times is making knowledge and experience your own and not just hearing or practicing intermittent bits. This comes through conscious seat time in combination with understanding the basic technicalities through reading and really thinking about it. The latter should always be going on whenever free. By conscious seat time I mean analytical thinking while driving - driving patiently and with very specific aims and practices. Cliche "analysis is paralysis" may be right in real race driving where much should already be second nature, but at any level below that, constant analysis backed by serious logic or better still, data.

Buy Carl Lopez's book ISBN 0-8376-0226-2 which incidentally is the Skip Barber Racing School handbook. It is the best technical book on driving I have found out of ~6 so far.. For the physical and mental side of things buy Ross Bentley's second book. They are both simple books and will take no more than a few hours to totally consume.

I believe all this should come before pro coaching and mods, or at least concurrently since it adds to what you will be able to draw from the pros. Seat time is really important.

Even on the street, you should be constantly practicing smooth inputs including minimal steering angle for turns with minimal correction anywhere along it, fast and smooth shuffle steer transitioning to and from standard cross steer, heel toe, LFB (when it comes to that), etc. I used to think I was doing great by practicing all this everywhere I went, but then I found out that my old room mate who is a pro driver did all that plus clutchless shifting in his really worn out sportscar. Last year on the 6 hour outbound drive to escape hurricane Rita in a mix of stop go near dead crawl and slow cruise traffic, he drove the entire way with his left leg (clutch foot) hanging out the window because we left AC off to conserve gas since there were shortages. This was all in a situation where, our cars were fully loaded, we were sleep deprived, weather extremely hot, and traffic horrendous. That was dedication and confidence - even at this risk of mechanical failure at a very bad time if he screwed up bad enough.

i figured why pay good money for a BBK and void my BMW warranty when i can start with something basic like learning how to shift gears and launch properly instead.

That is good figuring! Gather knowledge, practice, and analyze whenever you can, and have all the basics like shifting and heel toe, smooth inputs, all second nature and you will take much more away from trackdays and pro coaching. You will not be able to replicate completely the degree of force or speed to which the practices are carried out on the track, but by setting up the 90% base as second nature, the last bit will be complete within a few laps.

This knowledge collection and practice stuff is really all a matter of how much you want it. I remember some years ago when one of my friends (part of BMWsg) damn near mastered basic heel toe in 15 minutes (or less) of practice in a car that wasn't even his and not having any other manual car to drive.. I had never seen someone pick it up so fast... it just so happens that he was always talking about it, always thinking about it.

Once you get all this down and you have gotten close to the pro timing of your own car like NS suggested, and you can no longer drop time no matter how much you practice or analyze, then data opens up the next opportunity to drop big chunks of time by showing differences in that which takes lots of very advanced math to calculate. Usually this is degree of tradeoff between time, speed, vehicle position and orientation. What would otherwise require many tens or hundreds of laps of experimental laps just to find can now be found very much quicker. Basic data acquisition systems are available for 5-10K SGD. They will teach you more than a pro without data can. Again there are fairly simple books on data analysis. The best one is out of print but I will be happy to give you a copy. With 3 or 4 basic channels logged you will have more data than you could crunch even if you tracked just bi-monthly.

It really comes down to how much you want to drive that will guide all your decisions and action. Same thing with biketrial a long time ago... The best guys were the ones always out there actually riding and discussing it, thinking. The guys who had the latest and greatest equipment, coached by the imported pros at considerable cost, but who weren't out there practicing and thinking, didn't come close. Combination of both would be the best situation, but in all I've ever looked at in sport, the desire, knowledge and practice comes before pro coaching. Never the reverse to exceptional result.

The other thing is that I've never heard a piece of basic-mid level driving advice from any pro driver that could not be found elsewhere for much less. IMO the real gold they have to share has more to do with racing strategy rather than driving clean laps for time.

 

[louis]

Re: track driving school

thanks for your input Shaun, i'll definitely check that book out for sure. ran a check on amazon and realised they had a skip barber DVD as well, is that of any use in your opinion?

cheers

 

[Longshanks]

Re: track driving school

Shaun, that's some great knowledge there. Anyone know of any good driving programmes in or around London? There's an urge developing to want to burn some rubber this summer..

 

[Shaun]

Re: track driving school

Louis, I think the DVD will help.

Longshanks, sorry I'm not sure about programs in the UK.

========

In earlier post I forgot to mention that with wrong basic hand and footwork, good laptimes still can be cut but repeatability will not be as good. Going further into really fast laptimes sustained over large number of laps in a more taxing car pulls lots of lat. and long. Gs and is twitchy and/or runs heavy steering, faulty basics will not allow good laptimes to be repeated or even cut.

It is just like writing or playing the piano. You can write at a slower rate with improper stroke order , and you can play simpler piano pieces with messed up fingering. At the writing speed, and at the simplicity level of the piece, the written sentences can look good and the piece can sound nice, but if you want to keep progressing and write faster, play better, then you need to either get the basics as right as possible from as early as possible, or stop part way and restart from the beginning - latter being the harder option.

Driving theory is always nice to discuss, but if the basics have not already been nailed or at least are currently being earnestly strived towards, then absolutely nothing else matters (in the context of a person desiring to keep dropping laptimes). So if you see a person triple shuffling their way through a corner when it really only one or no shuffling, or if you see a person making inputs at a rate the 1.5 ton street car he drives cannot even respond to (natural frequency), then you know to take the person less seriously.

Many handling modifications raise the natural frequency of the vehicle. This is good for performance driving, but not to learn how to drive, all else equal. Will write more on this at a later date.

 

[Shaun]

Re: track driving school

Correction.. raises natural frequency, not lowers