hamann engine conversion for e90 330
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Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
this is the first major bishbashing thread ive seen in a long time...kind of like an MT-inspired thread..maybe ho should meet up with you guys...he could be a really nice guy (i remember el-M saying MT is a nice guy in real life away from the forum scene)
this is the first major bishbashing thread ive seen in a long time...kind of like an MT-inspired thread..maybe ho should meet up with you guys...he could be a really nice guy (i remember el-M saying MT is a nice guy in real life away from the forum scene)
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
Boleh, I never stir anything, I was serious about the stroker kit issue. I did ask about the Hamann stroker before also.... Just happen I was hungry when KiddyM talk about sausages....
Yes I am a fan of NA like our dear Arsony mentioned before, "there is no replacement for displacement!"
Boleh, I never stir anything, I was serious about the stroker kit issue. I did ask about the Hamann stroker before also.... Just happen I was hungry when KiddyM talk about sausages....
Yes I am a fan of NA like our dear Arsony mentioned before, "there is no replacement for displacement!"
Rastaman
Well-Known Member
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
Eh whats this about stroker kit ah ?? spend 21k for 300hp..hmmm....thats quiet a lot of dosh man. Just go NA like me la..can upgrade slowly to 275-300bhp !! no need 21k
Me just now want a simple 'port n polish' ..how on or not ? Sure power after that. U guys can upgrade yr ball bearing since u all playing V engine with high rev.... :nehnehhh:
Eh whats this about stroker kit ah ?? spend 21k for 300hp..hmmm....thats quiet a lot of dosh man. Just go NA like me la..can upgrade slowly to 275-300bhp !! no need 21k
Me just now want a simple 'port n polish' ..how on or not ? Sure power after that. U guys can upgrade yr ball bearing since u all playing V engine with high rev.... :nehnehhh:
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
Rastaman,
thanks for the assist that day and nice talking to you at the KFC.
before you splash money on a P&P, the M54 head is cnc ported from the factory and the VE is pretty darn good already. unless you plan on getting some work that's backed by flow bench numbers, you're not likely to gain much.
the power drop off after 5900rpm is likely due to valve float and not inadequate airflow. try stiffer valve springs first and increase redline if you're willing to trade power for extra wear; with your hydraulic lifters and these stiffer springs, you're probably good to go up to 7500rpm, which is about the limits without converting to solid lifters. with your cam profile, peak power should arrive between 6800 to 7100rpm though, so not much point in going beyond that.
cheers
Rastaman,
thanks for the assist that day and nice talking to you at the KFC.
before you splash money on a P&P, the M54 head is cnc ported from the factory and the VE is pretty darn good already. unless you plan on getting some work that's backed by flow bench numbers, you're not likely to gain much.
the power drop off after 5900rpm is likely due to valve float and not inadequate airflow. try stiffer valve springs first and increase redline if you're willing to trade power for extra wear; with your hydraulic lifters and these stiffer springs, you're probably good to go up to 7500rpm, which is about the limits without converting to solid lifters. with your cam profile, peak power should arrive between 6800 to 7100rpm though, so not much point in going beyond that.
cheers
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
TripleM,
well, that's the way to make NA power. revs, revs, revs.
DMS can move peak torque or peak power down the rpm range?
i'm not surprised that DMS can do what you say they can though; i mean, if they don't reply to emails, i can only assume its because they spend ALL their time tuning....
TripleM,
well, that's the way to make NA power. revs, revs, revs.
DMS can move peak torque or peak power down the rpm range?
i'm not surprised that DMS can do what you say they can though; i mean, if they don't reply to emails, i can only assume its because they spend ALL their time tuning....
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
You just have to know how to reach DMS thats all... hahaha! Take it from me who used to run DMS, it works. Much better driving experience after they tuned the car.
And yes, you can move torque down the rev range.
You just have to know how to reach DMS thats all... hahaha! Take it from me who used to run DMS, it works. Much better driving experience after they tuned the car.
And yes, you can move torque down the rev range.
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
CNC ported heads are good for manufacturing speed and repeatability, and balance across ports from a performance aspect, but do not automatically yield good flow or power. All heads from pure econo to F1 are designed and machined to specific cross sections to get peak port air speeds (averaged across the entire intake stroke) to the mach .45 - .60 window, depending on application. Any stock head designed to produce low peak torque or wide torque spread is going to be on the small side cross section wise. At smaller cross sections, the upper range will invariably be restricted. Pumping losses at upper engine speeds will start to exceed the energy released by burning the mass of fuel with mass air inducted which is pretty narrowly fixed by sensible AFRs. This is the power noseover point. There are other influences like mechanical friction and cam design that affect airflow ( a hundred other factors affect airflow), but the main determinant is port cross section.
6800 - 7100 RPM power peak on a sub 4 litre NA street engine IMO is only fun if the driver always drives in that range, or takes it tracking very often to offset the suffering on the street (assuming he drives normally on the street) knowing he could have had that much more low end to make things more comfortable. In both cases it means short engine life, and in the former, breaking laws and endangering the public.
louis;183399 said:
CNC ported heads are good for manufacturing speed and repeatability, and balance across ports from a performance aspect, but do not automatically yield good flow or power. All heads from pure econo to F1 are designed and machined to specific cross sections to get peak port air speeds (averaged across the entire intake stroke) to the mach .45 - .60 window, depending on application. Any stock head designed to produce low peak torque or wide torque spread is going to be on the small side cross section wise. At smaller cross sections, the upper range will invariably be restricted. Pumping losses at upper engine speeds will start to exceed the energy released by burning the mass of fuel with mass air inducted which is pretty narrowly fixed by sensible AFRs. This is the power noseover point. There are other influences like mechanical friction and cam design that affect airflow ( a hundred other factors affect airflow), but the main determinant is port cross section.
It is almost a feat to get modern 4V head valves to go into float (whether defined as loft or bounce) before you break something in the bottom end of the engine. For reasons in earlier paragraph as well as this one, I don't think float is the issue unless the stock hydraulic lifters are really weak and packing down.
6800 - 7100 RPM power peak on a sub 4 litre NA street engine IMO is only fun if the driver always drives in that range, or takes it tracking very often to offset the suffering on the street (assuming he drives normally on the street) knowing he could have had that much more low end to make things more comfortable. In both cases it means short engine life, and in the former, breaking laws and endangering the public.
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
Hardware unchanged, and hardware settings or phasings unchanged, the only way to shift peak power or peak torque down the engine speed range is to mess around with AF or ignition, pumping up a lower engine speeds, and leaving a higher engines speed the same, or weaker.
This is only possible if the original maps were weak in the lower engine speed area to begin with, or weak everywhere in the speed range, but tuner chooses to only strengthen lower end. If it was equally weak everywhere to start with and the same enhancements were made across the range then peak power or peak torque points would not move.
Hardware unchanged, and hardware settings or phasings unchanged, the only way to shift peak power or peak torque down the engine speed range is to mess around with AF or ignition, pumping up a lower engine speeds, and leaving a higher engines speed the same, or weaker.
This is only possible if the original maps were weak in the lower engine speed area to begin with, or weak everywhere in the speed range, but tuner chooses to only strengthen lower end. If it was equally weak everywhere to start with and the same enhancements were made across the range then peak power or peak torque points would not move.
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
Shaun,
i stand corrected then. i mentioned valve float because there's an enthusiast i know of who switched to 264/248 profile cams and his dyno showed the power curve plateauing from 6300rpm till his redline of 7000rpm. at that point in time, he already had a P&P done by the same company whose link i sent you via email the last time.
he discussed with his engine builder and they arrived at the conclusion that with the more aggressive cams and faster ramp rate, the valve springs were somehow inadequate and the valves "couldn't keep up with the cams"(his words, not mine). hence the conclusion i arrived at above.
cheers
Shaun,
i stand corrected then. i mentioned valve float because there's an enthusiast i know of who switched to 264/248 profile cams and his dyno showed the power curve plateauing from 6300rpm till his redline of 7000rpm. at that point in time, he already had a P&P done by the same company whose link i sent you via email the last time.
he discussed with his engine builder and they arrived at the conclusion that with the more aggressive cams and faster ramp rate, the valve springs were somehow inadequate and the valves "couldn't keep up with the cams"(his words, not mine). hence the conclusion i arrived at above.
cheers
Kiddy M
Well-Known Member
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
[
Me just now want a simple 'port n polish' ..how on or not ? Sure power after that. U guys can upgrade yr ball bearing since u all playing V engine with high rev.... :nehnehhh:[/quote]
u want? I use Autosol rub for u... no bling, no pay... how? onz boh...
bro.. seriously, i'm doin that to my Picnic car... but not sure if the guy doin it for me can do BMW boh...
[
Me just now want a simple 'port n polish' ..how on or not ? Sure power after that. U guys can upgrade yr ball bearing since u all playing V engine with high rev.... :nehnehhh:[/quote]
u want? I use Autosol rub for u... no bling, no pay... how? onz boh...
bro.. seriously, i'm doin that to my Picnic car... but not sure if the guy doin it for me can do BMW boh...
Re: hamann engine conversion for e90 330
Louis, I don't think anything with this specific case (as with most non-controlled builds/opreration/rebuilds) has been proven right or wrong. I just thought I'd mention the major factors to consider, as well as my opinion.
By physics and logic, if post-cam peak power is higher than pre-cam then the chances of it being a flow area problem are higher. If post-cam peak power is lower than pre-cam power then chances are it is a of problem with valve control.
To add to why I believe it still is not a valve control issue... modern 4V heads are able to run relatively mild durations and valve accelerations and still make healthy power. A cam that opens and closes so aggressively to get into false motion before even the factory redline, with 4V feeding a small cylinder - especially if total combination does not make very good power, suggests real far out specification - specification that is usually beyond what is made for street cars, and even then... damaging and ineffective for street cars if used in that application.
If the wild cam was speced to maintain low end via short duration and keep upper range strong even with small ports, then it still is a bandaid to the small cross section, and the low end still isn't going to be as strong as it would be with the same port and less lift because port velocity isn't kept as well averaged during and around the intake phase especially towards the intake valve closing where you need higher velocities. Essentially it is oversupply at the low end. Valvetronic or Dvanos help here, but degree to which.. I don't know. Even then the cam spec seems far too aggressive if it really is starting false motion of the valve under stock redline. That, or BMW speced some barely stiff enough springs that almost start to provide a mechanical redline by floating valves in the stock engine around the 8000 RPM and under range, which is unusual for a 4V.
Either case can be checked for. Running for any amount of time with lofting or bouncing valves and the wear will show in the lifters, and/or cam lobe, valve tips/heads/ seats. It will be obvious. If this guy is able to measure minimum port cross section of the port, then it is easy to calculate based on engine speed and displacement, whether or not the engine is flow area limited. All he needs is snap gauge and a pair of vernier calipers. Minimum cross section in 4V heads is usually right at port entry, or at port exit right at the bottom cut to bowl transition.
Cheers
louis;183566 said:
Louis, I don't think anything with this specific case (as with most non-controlled builds/opreration/rebuilds) has been proven right or wrong. I just thought I'd mention the major factors to consider, as well as my opinion.
By physics and logic, if post-cam peak power is higher than pre-cam then the chances of it being a flow area problem are higher. If post-cam peak power is lower than pre-cam power then chances are it is a of problem with valve control.
To add to why I believe it still is not a valve control issue... modern 4V heads are able to run relatively mild durations and valve accelerations and still make healthy power. A cam that opens and closes so aggressively to get into false motion before even the factory redline, with 4V feeding a small cylinder - especially if total combination does not make very good power, suggests real far out specification - specification that is usually beyond what is made for street cars, and even then... damaging and ineffective for street cars if used in that application.
If the wild cam was speced to maintain low end via short duration and keep upper range strong even with small ports, then it still is a bandaid to the small cross section, and the low end still isn't going to be as strong as it would be with the same port and less lift because port velocity isn't kept as well averaged during and around the intake phase especially towards the intake valve closing where you need higher velocities. Essentially it is oversupply at the low end. Valvetronic or Dvanos help here, but degree to which.. I don't know. Even then the cam spec seems far too aggressive if it really is starting false motion of the valve under stock redline. That, or BMW speced some barely stiff enough springs that almost start to provide a mechanical redline by floating valves in the stock engine around the 8000 RPM and under range, which is unusual for a 4V.
Either case can be checked for. Running for any amount of time with lofting or bouncing valves and the wear will show in the lifters, and/or cam lobe, valve tips/heads/ seats. It will be obvious. If this guy is able to measure minimum port cross section of the port, then it is easy to calculate based on engine speed and displacement, whether or not the engine is flow area limited. All he needs is snap gauge and a pair of vernier calipers. Minimum cross section in 4V heads is usually right at port entry, or at port exit right at the bottom cut to bowl transition.
Cheers
