Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

Racebred

Core Group Members
It's time to make preparations for the next track day. But there are major considerations to think through, with all the interested members in BMWSG.

Below is an email statement from SIC:

"As our track maintenance cost has increased considerabaly, we have now decided to increase the track rental charges as follows:

1) Club or Private Track Day
- Per Hour is RM6,000.00
- 3 Hour session is RM18,000.00
- Transponders - RM3,000.00 (Optional)

With immediate effect all Bookings must be made with a Deposit of RM5,000.00 and balance to be made on the event date before commencement of the session. All payments must be settled on the event date itself."



As of now, we have given up our April 16 track day slot, as we have not paid the deposit of 5k.

With the increased charges, from our next track day onwards we are looking at a likely 600rm per car. (30 cars x 600rm = rm18k) Is this kind of rate we trackkies wanna pay?

If yes, then we have some other secondary things to think about.

- Firstly, BMWSG's track days will still remain non-profit. And thus $ accounting-wise, transparent.
- We typically have about 30 cars firmed up for a track day (from past experience). Then last minute we may have another 10 cars coming in, on average, for a 40-car TD.
- This is the reason why i set the forecast for 30 cars (@ 600rm each) to secure the TD. If there are additional 9 cars that turn up, then we will have enough surplus to book the next track day.


consideration*
- is it right/ justified, from an accounting and from a logistical POV, to use surplus $ to book for the next track day? Coz attendees from TD1 may not attend TD2 but their money is being used to book (and thus subsidise) TD2. (but it's forward-looking, continuous rolling, as there'll be TD3, TD4, etc)

but logistically and procedurally, it seems to be the best way forward. need your views.

- if we do not meet our 30 car target, then will each member pay more to top up to 18k? if we do not reach our 39 car target, then how will we book the following TD?

- assuming that demand for SIC timeslot bookings remain the same (they are currently affected negatively now with the price increase), then booking the next track day only after the current one, one by one, (as opposed to blocking out 6-9 slots for the entire year for BMWSG one shot), will be a hit-and-miss situation. Doing last minute bookings for a TD 1-2 months later, may mean we do not get any slots at all. But to secure 6-9TD for an entire year, will require 30k-45k upfront to be tied up for the entire year. Any solutions to this?



Currently,
we have 24 x $190, and 8 x $210 already pre-paid for the 27Feb TD. We just sui sui break even. (This track day costs rm15k)

There are still some cars that are interested to go but not yet paid. before this decision is to be made, I am provisioning all of the track fees beyond this 32 cars to become the deposit. So let's see how many more cars firm up for this track day.

Let me have your thoughts. Anyone who is a regular trackkie, or who is intending to join us for future track days, should pip in. Let's share views, and come to a general consensus on how to move forward, so we may have time to react, and book the timeslot.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

I am a little puzzled by the pricing structure. In our previous discussion thread (http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/discus...n-guidelines-discussion.html?highlight=sepang) this was mentioned:

totoseow;497373 said:
there r no profits from trackdays. SIC charges a fixed amt for 30 cars. every car after that pays another fixed amount. every single cent goes to SIC.

as well as:

TripleM;498367 said:
The charge is 12K minimum so say typically 30 cars, that is 400 MYR per car chargeable to each driver. Extra cars will pay to SIC. That's how the arrangement was communicated to me.
Also I think depending on which day, weekend like Saturday can be alittle more expensive and then sometimes 4 hour session is priced differently as well.

if the above is true, then how can the highlighted portion below be possible since every extra cent, above and beyond the minimum track rental fees, goes back to SIC??

Racebred;521468 said:
With the increased charges, from our next track day onwards we are looking at a likely 600rm per car. (30 cars x 600rm = rm18k) Is this kind of rate we trackkies wanna pay?

If yes, then we have some other secondary things to think about.

- Firstly, BMWSG's track days will still remain non-profit. And thus $ accounting-wise, transparent.
- We typically have about 30 cars firmed up for a track day (from past experience). Then last minute we may have another 10 cars coming in, on average, for a 40-car TD.
- This is the reason why i set the forecast for 30 cars (@ 600rm each) to secure the TD. If there are additional 9 cars that turn up, then we will have enough surplus to book the next track day.

Are there receipts from past track days or the upcoming track days for us to take a look at?
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

I was wondering the same thing Louis was, except he's taken the trouble to quote appropriately.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

SIC issues receipts

At end of the day , what matters most to SIC is the minimum rental charge payable.
They dont know how much each organiser charges their track participants. As organiser myself, my objective is to breakeven.
In the past, when I had a surplus which was very rare, maybe a surplus of 2 cars only in one of the TDs for the entire 09. Was I required to give back the proceeds ? Yes as how it was originally communicated to me.

But do u know my real thot? I think it's unfair so kept the surplus for future TDs. Tho in the end, I was still down with some $$$ for the year, that is personal money.

So this time round...we are going to manage it more properly as a club hence i roped in Racebred since I am also in charge of doing motorsport events for other club.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

in short, there's a by right, and there's a by left. By right, whatever we collect that day, we pass all, they issue receipt. By left, they are happy to have their basic track rental fee of 15k covered, and dont press us for anymore, then we will exercise flexibility. in the interest of our very own future bmwsg track day (perhaps in april), i proposed the above. However, if by bringing this up we can find a solution, maybe some member here forking out some money first to down the deposit for us to later collect proceeds then pay him back, that'll be doable too. Also, if one day they insist on taking everything, then we will after that, lose an option for a method to book the next TD. that's life.

On the issue of Jack organising a track day for us then still kena losses, in an earlier thread I have suggested that as a community we should come together to cover his losses. (2 cars) I have not received any disagreement from all stakeholders...?

lastly, I dont think i can handle this alone. there'll be track days that I will not be able to make. Someone else will have to take over by then. I will also need help, in organising this track day. Anyone else in addition to those already expressed interest to come together to organise the track day, pls do let me know. It reduced workload, increases transparency, and makes it more fun and less of a chore for me to put this together.

we'll need to manage track fees, communicate with SIC, arrange for convoy, briefings, orientations, taking care of newbies, and responding to unforseen circumstances such as assistance to vehicle breakdowns en route, or accidents on track.

And it also settles accountability when it comes to matters such as track fees.

pls let me know your thoughts.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

I'd be ok with paying a membership fee of $200 (for example) to a "club" account, then we could use that to cover the upfront booking fees for the track day.

Charge a fixed fee for each track day to cover the $18000 RM - then there would be a renewed surplus after the track day to book the next one. Members get first refusal on slots at preferential rates.

IMO Track fees are about the smallest cost of the overall day... what with fuel, tyres, wear n tear, tolls, dynamic tolls etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

Girettom;521523 said:
I'd be ok with paying a membership fee of $200 (for example) to a "club" account, then we could use that to cover the upfront booking fees for the track day.

Charge a fixed fee for each track day to cover the $18000 RM - then there would be a renewed surplus after the track day to book the next one. Members get first refusal on slots at preferential rates.

IMO Track fees are about the smallest cost of the overall day... what with fuel, tyres, wear n tear, tolls, dynamic tolls etc.

agree.

bottom line, we all still want to track so we need to find a way to make this work. in general bmw-sg track days are the best because they have a limited number of cars and are cheap. even if we have to pay $300 a session i think that's better value and a better overall experience than other clubs / garages out there who are only in it for a profit.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

Marc's club account is a good idea.

As for Jack's shortfall, I think all confirmed tua-ers for 2009 should split it and make it up to him. If they explicitly refuse to, it should be officially declared just so we know who the idiots are, and then I suppose the rest of the members who've never tua-ed can split the shortfall costs if willing. Personally I am willing to split so Jack doesn't have to bear the burden alone, but would like to know who the people who caused the problem are.

Shawn, can help with all areas you list except convoy up and down since I will often leave a day early or return a day late for various reasons.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

I hv banned the Tua-ers. Let me be explicit...it's two of Karam's friends. Azad ( E92 335 ) and Prakash ( GTR )
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

TripleM;521616 said:
I hv banned the Tua-ers. Let me be explicit...it's two of Karam's friends. Azad ( E92 335 ) and Prakash ( GTR )

Ok so you're down 2 x 400 RM? 800 RM divide by say 20 regular 2009 and 2010 BMWsg trackers is 40 RM each. Cool..
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

RB has offered me several times to work this out which is very nice of him ( i think he wants a taxi ride in my car keke..... ) but I hv decided to let the matter rest hence my minimal involvement in organising TDs goin fwd.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

TripleM;521638 said:
RB has offered me several times to work this out which is very nice of him ( i think he wants a taxi ride in my car keke..... ) but I hv decided to let the matter rest hence my minimal involvement in organising TDs goin fwd.

i would suggest that if the organisers deem fit, we can compensate Jack by giving him a couple of free track days, either by contributed payments, or from surplus funds (if any).

ed
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

yup, i've also considered that jack should get special bmwsg voucher for 2 free track days. but thats only possible if we've already broken even at that track day.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

U guys are too nice, tears dropping.....
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

TripleM;521688 said:
U guys are too nice, tears dropping.....

No!

U are always the super nice one!! Always helping us to organise & book for our BMW.SG track events!

Making sure briefing is conducted & making it safest possible & enjoyable day!

Kudos to you always!

I'm ok for either solutions for our future track days.......it's not easy to get it organise....time.....effort....co-ordinate.....$$ collection.....$$ payment......$$ short fall.....

Our track days are the cheapest around!!

Traction Circle's Track day cost more!!

I joined them once.... I know.....




'The Great White'
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

We have now about rm7.1k in the kitty. Do we have any objections to refund Jack for the losses he incurred during these years of organising TDs for BMWSG? His long service award for his efforts is losses for 2 cars' fees.

We now have enough reserves to book our next track day (if we as BMWSG members still want them). The above membership fee idea may not need to be implemented, if we continue to break even for every track day henceforth. The subsequent 5k will keep rolling over for subsequent track days.

The problem with the above method, is that we are only able to book a track day one at a time. and only after one track day is over can we have the ability to book the next one. Could be quite hui hiam.

The membership method may also give us the same problem, depending on how much we collect, we can only book as many TDs to a factor of 5000. Besides, if one has to pay membership, one may as well join TCC (assuming they are still organising sepangs), But this is only my personal opinion.

I suggest we start small, and slowly grow. If, each track day we get some reserves, we'll be able to slowly build them up. Now, after one track day this time, we have enough to book 1 in the future. If after a few more track days, we slowly accumulate enough to be able to next time book 4-6 track days one shot, then we have reached our target of reserves. And from then on, i think additional reserves (above this upper limit of 20-30k) after the track day can be split up and refunded to all participants. Up till the time when Sepang decides to change their charges again.

The other question is, are we okay to pay the revised charges (18k per track day)? Should we be more optimistic and set the breakeven point at 35 cars? If at 35 cars, our track fee will be 520rm. This is 20rm more than the regular rate we paid for the Feb27 Weekend track day. Is demand elastic enough for significant trackkies to be turned off? (regular rate could be maybe 550rm and door rate 600rm) Is 600rm super turn off?

What you guys think?

Also, I'm open to the idea of letting someone else interested, to take over as chief organiser. If you got ze passion, pls step forward ok.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

btw this track day could have this healthy turnout, is of coz with everyone's support. In particular Jack and Percival underwrote like 20% of the turnout each. Without them about 1/3 of the TD would not be filled up. By my reckoning, more than half the turnout were from non-members. So in my opinion, healthy turnout at every single track day is still not a given, and we need to take that into consideration.
 
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

RB agreed with ur points above but as to this particular ref
The problem with the above method, is that we are only able to book a track day one at a time. and only after one track day is over can we have the ability to book the next one. Could be quite hui hiam.
.........It isnt a worry IMO as organisers from Singapore side hv mostly cancelled their bookings so those who hv money to book should easily get the slot. The right way to really execute this is to secure a slot one at a time going forward if SIC insists on having MYR 5K as deposit..
I can guarantee you no single club/auto dealers/corporates will be desperate enough to secure multiple slots in this new scenario.

At end of day it's all bout the turn out....MYR 520 and capped at 35 cars are the breakeven numbers..I think reasonably charges but can we see such turn out? Always a big question......
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Discussion for BMWSG April Track Day

After tracking with you guys a couple of times, these are my observation...

1) you guys have much less cars on track
I guess, as long as it does not exceed more then 45 cars, it should be alright.

2) Track fees: other clubs charge higher (up to $350 for some)
The extra is another 3000rm, thats RM100 per car for 30 cars .
So either increase the no of cars that track or the fees to match

3) not so open to non members joining the track days
I find that there are less and less new drivers on track...
If you have more new drivers, it would help in having to secure the min no of cars each track day.

Just some thoughts.. dont take it negatively.
 

Latest posts

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
82,772
Messages
1,019,435
Members
78,670
Latest member
oxbett2com

Latest posts

Back
Top