Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Racebred said:
Road tax, i feel, is conceived as a tax on the social ills of driving a car.
Agree. Part of consumption tax. together with ERP. But why not scrap COE and tax consumption altogether? You drive to town you pay $20 per entry. But you save $70K upfront. You get to own a car, but you need to be route-prudent. You can take MRT to Orchard but you can drive to Sembawang for a picnic.

Racebred said:
A 3L engine can actually be cleaner than an old 1.5L. I say change the road tax guideline to a function of emissions, and to a lesser extent, road footprint. The current law is archaic. A big cc supermini paying sky high road tax is silly.
I think embeded in this argument is also the NA vs FI divide..... hehehe......

Racebred said:
ERP is an obvious solution but only for CBD areas and areas where people have an alternative, for both time and route. If not, you will just be accused of earning money from an inelastic demand situation. The rush hour jams happen because people need to get to work and get home. It's just the same as lunchtime human jams. The human jams happen during lunchtime because of.... lunch.
Inelastic is the word. But traffic designs could still be improved. BTW, why would Golden Shoe requires 4 humps within 10 metres to slow down the cars? How to drive fast there? And the CTE/Havelock exit..... 5-6 lanes but left lanes trying to filter right and right lanes filtering left......WITHIN THAT SHORT STRETCH UP TO Eu Tong Sen...... WTF? Rant rant rant......

Racebred said:
Instead of spending billions building more roads, LTA should instead focus on optimising flow along the same roads. Ineffective driving styles in my opinion are a major contributor to congestion. The other is road design. The channeling of flow at the entrances and exits of expressways, and the design of junctions including traffic lights management. The reshaping of roads and the investment into some form of "fuzzy logic" R&D on dynamic road usage, plus efficient driving public education, is a much better way to spend your money. You spend millions adding an additional lane on the expressway, only to have a taxi uncle hog that new lane and effective bringing your cars/hour flow rate back to day one.
+1,000,000 !!!

Can you tell the ivory tower minister it is dumb to have a one lane exit to PIE Changi on CTE? The result is a 2-lane jam on CTE northbound.

Racebred said:
Please vote me for transport minister. I need to earn a couple of million bucks a year. thanks.
You running for which GRC? I will move there !!!
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

You see if you take COE out of the "discourage driving schemes" repertoire, you cannot control overall car population. You may end up with a paper scenario of 6 million cars driving to sembawang for picnics. So COE + ERP takes care of overall population + select area "pay as you use" scheme.

ERPs on expressways during morning and evening peak hour jams are based on inelastic demand and will not work. They merely serve to smear out the same number of vehicles over a longer time frame. I say let the normal market forces take care of this, in this case, people's dislike of getting stuck in jams. Just as I will, if i can, go for lunch at 1145am to beat the lunch crowd, those that can can plan their journeys at earlier or later times. Those who dont have the flexibility are currently stuck in the same jam paying the same ERP charges now. Fuel lost in jams can be mitigated by start-stop and/or electric technology which will become more commonplace in years to come (if the govt does not continue their protectionistic views on their beloved petrol tax).

The majority of the working crowd who drive to work, only need their car in the whole day for 2 trips. There is actually no need to drive, unlike in bigger countries or cities. Singapore's public transportation's hardware network is actually very comprehensive already. What they are unwilling to do is to increase the frequency of trains and buses so as to absorb the whole travelling working crowd. Because this results in major excess capacity during the off-peak hours, and certainly results in big continuous losses for any transport company.

I say, use the money you've been using to build more roads, to absorb these losses from the transport companies. Increase the capacity to suit the peak hour demand, because the off-peak excess capacity is a necessary evil in land scarce singapore. Singapore as a small city state is extremely ideal for public transportation for going to work. We should stop widening roads. Because the volume from people's reliance on car + bad driving habits + unrealistic traffic regulations & planning will supercede any lane addition. We should stop citing yardsticks based on kilometers of roads built in singapore, but rather by traffic flow rate.

City planners will say, they are doing what they can to pre-empt situations a la Bangkok, Jarkata, Shanghai, Beijing. But they forgot that singapore's well-connected transport network plus relative small size is ideal for people to switch from car to trains almost instantly. All they need to beef up is to double or triple, maybe quadruple seat capacity and train frequency, accept the fact that most of them will never be used during off-peak hours. Also, beef up the already rather robust bus routes to facilitate interchanging, and perhaps increase the bus lanes island wide. Safety distances between trains which is what LTA cited as one of the rubbish reasons for not increasing frequency, can be had by upgrading software and hardware. If need be, construct double decker or parallel lanes to double the train frequency whilst maintaining the same safety distance.

Alternate no-seat carriages with seated carriages perhaps one in every 4 arrivals to pack in more people. Those who genuinely need seats can wait for their seated carriages, aided by the "station ambassodors".

There. Transport situation in singapore sorted.
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Racebred;635040 said:
COE + ARF is meant to keep the vehicle population in check. It's in the right direction. A worse scenario to having to buy an expensive car is to buy a cheap one with nowhere to drive in.

IMHO, COE is in the right direction, but I disagree on the "Bidded COE" method.

A balloting system (for a flat fee of SGD$X) will suffice. You submit your application, then at the end of the ballot, you either get a COE or not. How will this "not work"?

Why do you have to make a bid (and pay less if your bid is not the lowest) if the agenda is not to increase revenue and market manipulation?
Vehicle related costs and taxes (ARF/Road Tax/Petrol Tax/GST etc) are mutually exclusive from vehicle population once you introduce a quota, no?

Ballot system - everyone wants a car, but not everyone can get one (luck?)
Current system - everyone wants a car, but only those who can afford one can get one (rich?)

cheers
 
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Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Racebred;635147 said:
You see if you take COE out of the "discourage driving schemes" repertoire, you cannot control overall car population. You may end up with a paper scenario of 6 million cars driving to sembawang for picnics. So COE + ERP takes care of overall population + select area "pay as you use" scheme.

ERPs on expressways during morning and evening peak hour jams are based on inelastic demand and will not work. They merely serve to smear out the same number of vehicles over a longer time frame. I say let the normal market forces take care of this, in this case, people's dislike of getting stuck in jams. Just as I will, if i can, go for lunch at 1145am to beat the lunch crowd, those that can can plan their journeys at earlier or later times. Those who dont have the flexibility are currently stuck in the same jam paying the same ERP charges now. Fuel lost in jams can be mitigated by start-stop and/or electric technology which will become more commonplace in years to come (if the govt does not continue their protectionistic views on their beloved petrol tax).

The majority of the working crowd who drive to work, only need their car in the whole day for 2 trips. There is actually no need to drive, unlike in bigger countries or cities. Singapore's public transportation's hardware network is actually very comprehensive already. What they are unwilling to do is to increase the frequency of trains and buses so as to absorb the whole travelling working crowd. Because this results in major excess capacity during the off-peak hours, and certainly results in big continuous losses for any transport company.

I say, use the money you've been using to build more roads, to absorb these losses from the transport companies. Increase the capacity to suit the peak hour demand, because the off-peak excess capacity is a necessary evil in land scarce singapore. Singapore as a small city state is extremely ideal for public transportation for going to work. We should stop widening roads. Because the volume from people's reliance on car + bad driving habits + unrealistic traffic regulations & planning will supercede any lane addition. We should stop citing yardsticks based on kilometers of roads built in singapore, but rather by traffic flow rate.

City planners will say, they are doing what they can to pre-empt situations a la Bangkok, Jarkata, Shanghai, Beijing. But they forgot that singapore's well-connected transport network plus relative small size is ideal for people to switch from car to trains almost instantly. All they need to beef up is to double or triple, maybe quadruple seat capacity and train frequency, accept the fact that most of them will never be used during off-peak hours. Also, beef up the already rather robust bus routes to facilitate interchanging, and perhaps increase the bus lanes island wide. Safety distances between trains which is what LTA cited as one of the rubbish reasons for not increasing frequency, can be had by upgrading software and hardware. If need be, construct double decker or parallel lanes to double the train frequency whilst maintaining the same safety distance.

Alternate no-seat carriages with seated carriages perhaps one in every 4 arrivals to pack in more people. Those who genuinely need seats can wait for their seated carriages, aided by the "station ambassodors".

There. Transport situation in singapore sorted.

Agree with Racebred. I have sold my car but taking the train is plain miserable. I have to wait for an average of 4 to 6 trains every morning in order to board. In many occasions, I nearly fainted in a fully packed train because I could barely breathe.

Anyway, just wondering... The money collected from COE goes to? We always assume it's tax etc but could they be more open in terms of accountability?

Bus lanes... Not sure about this. Many stretches of roads I've seen are almost "wasted" on bus lanes... I barely see buses, people continue to avoid due to the uncertainty of timing of the lane's hours.

As per what Kenntona pointed out, bottle neck expressway exits is pure bad design. It's not even an old road type of problem. Our new KPE's exits are your key bottlenecks. The morning traffic exiting Airport Road jams up many kilometres of KPE preventing people from using the rest of the expressways due to the clogging. Evening traffic east bound on the KPE is always jammed up as well.

Instead of putting scholars on top of your road planning, why don't you just award the cat who knows how to catch the rat. On that note, Racebred should run for elections. He's got my vote.
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Actually, COE is financed via leverage, but consumption is not. So taxing a town-entry at $20 or 30 per trip sure to hit your pockets than a $70K COE.

And if all the traffic is diverted to Sembawang, that should leave CTE/Orchard Road empty and pleasant for those who still wanna pay.......
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

BlackCookie;635159 said:
Agree with Racebred. I have sold my car but taking the train is plain miserable. I have to wait for an average of 4 to 6 trains every morning in order to board. In many occasions, I nearly fainted in a fully packed train because I could barely breathe.

Anyway, just wondering... The money collected from COE goes to? We always assume it's tax etc but could they be more open in terms of accountability?

Bus lanes... Not sure about this. Many stretches of roads I've seen are almost "wasted" on bus lanes... I barely see buses, people continue to avoid due to the uncertainty of timing of the lane's hours.

As per what Kenntona pointed out, bottle neck expressway exits is pure bad design. It's not even an old road type of problem. Our new KPE's exits are your key bottlenecks. The morning traffic exiting Airport Road jams up many kilometres of KPE preventing people from using the rest of the expressways due to the clogging. Evening traffic east bound on the KPE is always jammed up as well.

Instead of putting scholars on top of your road planning, why don't you just award the cat who knows how to catch the rat. On that note, Racebred should run for elections. He's got my vote.

could it be that the roads are intentionally designed like that - to justify ERP?
count the number of expressway entrances versus exits from General Hospital to Braddell... and people wonder why there's a jam in that direction during peak hour?
place an entrance 200-500m before an exit, and people wonder about congestion?

sigh...
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

PAP principle is based on meritrocracy in very sense,, So if there is shortage in supply of any resources, the highest bidder secure and not by luck...

The argument is if you cannot afford the COE why do you want to own a car in the first place as this is the worst place in the world to own cars which is considered a luxury goods. In addition by allocating the cOE to the highest bidder will maximize the income for the gov to be channeled for projects/spendings that benefits the general public.

However I think the gov would have let the people down if they have huge reserves and the general public cannot afford the basic healthcare/housing or basic education fees. Worst of all if some idiot blew a huge chunk of the reserve thru poor judgement or bad investment and still benchmarking against the top earners in their profesion.

Thats why this GE is all about the affordability of basic needs & Job security.



edlms;635158 said:
Ballot system - everyone wants a car, but not everyone can get one (luck?)
Current system - everyone wants a car, but only those who can afford one can get one (rich?)

cheers
 
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Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

zorro;635182 said:
In addition by allocating the cOE to the highest bidder will maximize the income for the gov to be channeled for projects/spendings that benefits the general public.
.

if you pay what you bid, then that would possibly be acceptable.
but currently, you can bid really high, and not have to pay that amount but a lesser sum.

That's a formula for market manipulation and artificial inflating price... adding to the financial pressures of living in Singapore.
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

zorro;635182 said:
PAP principle is based on meritrocracy in very sense,, So if there is shortage in supply of any resources, the highest bidder secure and not by luck...

The argument is if you cannot afford the COE why do you want to own a car in the first place as this is the worst place in the world to own cars which is considered a luxury goods. In addition by allocating the cOE to the highest bidder will maximize the income for the gov to be channeled for projects/spendings that benefits the general public.

Glad that you are not one of those silly people that says it is pocketed by Lee.

zorro;635182 said:
Worst of all if some idiot blew a huge chunk of the reserve thru poor judgement or bad investment.

Enlighten Me. How and where it was invested poorly?

zorro;635182 said:
benchmarking against the top earners in their profesion.
Why are people keep complaining about their salaries?
I personally don't think it is that huge of a pay cheque, it is justifiable.
These ministers could easily get a private sector job with a better pay, get less scrutiny from people if they want to, if they really are only concern about the money.
Do people want to see a day when salaries of ministers are low, but hide millions of dollars at home in corruption like our neighbors?
Do we want to end up being corrupted like our neighbors? If no, why the complain..
 
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Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Dude,

See the other thread on the open letter to PM...and I may not be refering to minister on the investment......And I never say minister pay is too high although it seems to be but I merely said if someone is paid so highly to manage Sovereign fund that belong to the Sporean then she/he better deliver the goods and own up if he/she screwed up!

If u bother to read more, I am in favour of PAP in many areas especially in the basic fundamental principle of meritrocracy and dont try to act like some of the minister here especially if you are new in this forum.


Kevinleh;635223 said:
Glad that you are not one of those silly people that says it is pocketed by Lee.



Enlighten Me. How and where it was invested poorly?


Why are people keep complaining about their salaries?
I personally don't think it is that huge of a pay cheque, it is justifiable.
These ministers could easily get a private sector job with a better pay, get less scrutiny from people if they want to, if they really are only concern about the money.
Do people want to see a day when salaries of ministers are low, but hide millions of dollars at home in corruption like our neighbors?
Do we want to end up being corrupted like our neighbors? If no, why the complain..
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

zorro;635232 said:
Dude,
I never say minister pay is too high although it seems to be but I merely said if someone is paid so highly to manage.

Statement is a little contradicting, nevertheless.
I agree that if someone is paid highly to manage, must.
Well, didn't we grow in the last couples of years, despite people shouting out ECONOMIC DOWNTURN?

Well, mistakes being make is definitely forgivable, they are human not GOD.
Even Apple can make mistakes, despite earning higher then our ministers.
Did anyone complain about his pay? No, coz in a whole Apple is still profitable.
Similarly, on a whole Singapore did well. Why only look at one's bad point?

Zorro, I know you are not one of those people. But I'm just voicing my anger on people that scrutinize the government without substantial basis. Not recognizing their effort and ungrateful to the people that help make who they are today.
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Kevinleh;635250 said:
Statement is a little contradicting, nevertheless.
Well, mistakes being make is definitely forgivable, they are human not GOD.
Even Apple can make mistakes, despite earning higher then our ministers.
Did anyone complain about his pay? No, coz in a whole Apple is still profitable.
Similarly, on a whole Singapore did well. Why only look at one's bad point?
i hope u know how much is Steve Jobs salary
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Kevinleh;635250 said:
Statement is a little contradicting, nevertheless.
I agree that if someone is paid highly to manage, must.
Well, didn't we grow in the last couples of years, despite people shouting out ECONOMIC DOWNTURN?

>>> U miss my point again..I am not refering to minister on the bad investment! Didnt u notice that this GE is the toughest for PAP??? Why because although the GDP numbers looks good but is the general public better off in terms of affordability/spending powers and I am talking about basic needs/services. Car and sex are not included although sex is debatable..Go study Maslow Hierachy of Needs.

Well, mistakes being make is definitely forgivable, they are human not GOD.
Even Apple can make mistakes, despite earning higher then our ministers.
Did anyone complain about his pay? No, coz in a whole Apple is still profitable.
Similarly, on a whole Singapore did well. Why only look at one's bad point?

>>> If the people heading the TH/GIC can be another Steve Jobs, then I think we would see more of Spore companies that is of Int Std...I have worked in many of the big MNC before and I know if you dont deliver your ass will be on fire..


Zorro, I know you are not one of those people. But I'm just voicing my anger on people that scrutinize the government without substantial basis. Not recognizing their effort and ungrateful to the people that help make who they are today.

>>> Generally you may have a good gov in SPore but there may be areas that can be improved bcos sometimes those guys/gals in the ivory tower are so disconnected from the real world....If the only complaint from the ground is that they cannot afford a car/coe in Spore then I will say 'Fark It you ungrateful bunch of idiots" but when basic needs/services are no longer affordable to the mass, then we have a problem and that is why opposition is having a field day at least at the moment..

If u asked me I trust the Opps candidates to run the Gov...I tell you, I may be more qualified than many of them so why should I vote them to run the gov?????
 
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Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Mockngbrd;635257 said:
i hope u know how much is Steve Jobs salary

.... and when the VP who made the iphone 4 antennae booboo he RESIGNED or FIRED!
that's called f@rking accountability..
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

All in all, i guess nobody will deny that PAP is still a good gov.. and I reckon they will not be overthrown this election.. But I guessed most of the Singaporeans are sick and tired of PAP implementing policies that does not bodes well with the general public.. alot of policies seems to favour the riches rather than the general public.. even public housing, which was meant to be affordable to the general public, doesnt seems that affordable right now, considering the price of a HDB has been inflated 10x but salary has probably increased 2x.. What we are seeing now in Parliament are a bunch of PAP MPs who are there just to voice some "concerns" (for formality sake, i guess), but agrees to whatever policies passed out when it comes to decision making. What we want to see actually is some check & balance from Opposition parties. I'm sure Singaporeans are sensible enough not to vote for any kuching kurat just for the sake of opposing the PAP. I'm sure there are credible oppositions out there who would challenged to gather more information and thus more transparencies before any policies are being passed.
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Kevinleh;635223 said:
Why are people keep complaining about their salaries?
I personally don't think it is that huge of a pay cheque, it is justifiable.
These ministers could easily get a private sector job with a better pay, get less scrutiny from people if they want to, if they really are only concern about the money.
Do people want to see a day when salaries of ministers are low, but hide millions of dollars at home in corruption like our neighbors?
Do we want to end up being corrupted like our neighbors? If no, why the complain..

It is only an assumption that these ministers can perform well in a private sector job.

Regarding the logic on corruption vs high pay. By the very same logic, frauds/conman/criminals are not evil, they are just underpaid.
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Mockngbrd;635257 said:
i hope u know how much is Steve Jobs salary

$1 !!! but he got stock options ma. Worth alot U noe hee hee
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

Mockngbrd;635257 said:
i hope u know how much is Steve Jobs salary

Steve Jobs Salaries - $1

Wikipedia
As of October 2009, Jobs owned 5.426 million shares of Apple, most of which was granted in 2003 when Jobs was given 10 million shares. He also owned 138 million shares of Disney, which he had received in exchange for Disney's acquisition of Pixar.[57] Forbes estimated his net wealth at $5.1 billion in 2009, making him the 43rd wealthiest American.[58] After Bloomberg had accidentally published Jobs' obituary in 2008, Arik Hesseldahl of BusinessWeek magazine noted that "Jobs isn’t widely known for his association with philanthropic causes", compared to Bill Gates' efforts.[59] After resuming control of Apple in 1997, Jobs eliminated all corporate philanthropy programs.

Do your maths first..
 
Re: Different COEs for Singaporeans and foreigners?

zag;635278 said:
.... and when the VP who made the iphone 4 antennae booboo he RESIGNED or FIRED!
that's called f@rking accountability..

:goodup: but I would prefer they account for that booboo with a total replacement when the newer version came out.. but I guessed that's just wishful thinking on my part.
 
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