Corner weighting

Gerald81

Well-Known Member
Just to share a write-up on corner weighting for any interested trackies:

I believe that while most of us have heard of corner weighting, not many of us actually understand its benefits and what it involves. To make matters worse, most workshops that perform corner weighting services either fail to properly educate customers, or worse, share misleading information. To top it off, the costs of corner weighting are relatively high, ranging from $350 to almost $500. That, coupled with the fact that the benefits of corner weighting can only be fully appreciated on track, is what I believe turns most casual enthusiasts away. However, with more and more drivers participating in track days, and the upcoming Changi Motorsports Hub presenting the prospect of a local track, more enthusiasts may wish to consider corner weighting their cars. After all, to get the most out of engine modifications, proper ECU tuning is required. Likewise, corner weighting is the final step to getting the most out of your suspension setup. Anyway, enough rambling from me, and on to the subject topic.

What is corner weighting?
In order for a car to make full use of its tyres’ available grip on a road course, the full weight of the car should be evenly distributed across all four tyres. Unfortunately this is impossible for most road cars in general, where the choice of drive-train layout and driver sitting position offset significantly affects the weight distribution. For example, placement of the engine and transmission at the front is one of the most common drive-train layouts used, which tends to result in a high weight bias up front. Another example would be in right-hand drive cars, where the steering column and linkages (and the driver himself) tend to weigh heavily on the front right corner.

The goal of corner weighting is to achieve equality between the sum of the weight resting on the rear left and front right tyres and the sum of the weight resting on the rear right and front left tyres. This can be represented simply as RL + FR = RR + FL. In automotive speak, RL + FR is called the cross weight, and it should ideally be 50% of total vehicle weight.

To illustrate the impact of having uneven corner weights, we might consider a typical Subaru Impreza, with a front engine, right-hand drive layout with the exhaust muffler fixated at the rear left corner. In this case, the car is likely to have cross weight percentage higher than 50%, which means RL + FR > RR + FL. In a right hand turn, the weight of the car shifts towards the left. At the front end, part of the heavier load on the FR tyre shifts onto the FL tyre, equalizing the left and right tyre loads, thereby maximising grip. At the rear end, weight shifts from the lightly loaded RR tyre towards the already over-burdened RL tyre, overloading it and reducing available grip. As a result of better grip at the front and lower grip at the rear, oversteer is promoted. In a left hand turn, the weight of the car shifts towards the right. At the front end, weight shifts from the lightly loaded FL tyre towards the heavier FR tyre, overloading it, and decreasing grip. At the rear end, the heavier load on the RL tyre is evenly distributed to the RR tyre as weight shifts towards the right, thereby maximising grip. As a result, understeer occurs.

When the car reacts differently in left and right turns as illustrated above, it is less predictable and more difficult to drive with confidence at the limit. The objective of corner weighting for a road course is to tune the suspension such that the car reacts predictably and maximises the grip of its tyres in both left and right turns. For oval racing tracks (e.g. NASCAR) where the car needs only to turn well in a single direction, corner weighting can be used to tune the car’s handling characteristics to promote understeer or oversteer, but that is not relevant for most of us.

How is corner weighting done?
To corner weight a car, you will need to be able to adjust the suspension ride height (e.g. height adjustable coilovers), and a means of weighing the car at each corner (e.g. corner weight scales). For best results, you will want to do it on relatively flat ground. From what I’ve observed, most garage floors or driveways have a very slight slope angle built in. This is still workable, but at a minimum, all four scales should be more or less on the same flat plane, so you’ll need to measure the wheelbase and track width of the car, and find four corresponding spots that are relatively flat. It’s also preferable to drive the car onto the scales using ramps as opposed to jacking it up and dropping it down to avoid suspension bind, which may affect the readings.

01CornerWeightScales.jpg
02Ramps.jpg
03MeasuringWheelbase.jpg
04MeasuringWheelbase.jpg

05PositioningScales.jpg
06Weighing.jpg
07PetrolLevel.jpg
08CornerWeights.jpg


Once the scales have been positioned, the car is put on the scales, the weight measured, and then the necessary adjustments can be made. However, before weighing, the car should be in track-ready condition. This means that all fluids should be topped to the appropriate levels used for track days (personally, I would use three-quarter tank of fuel, minimal windshield washer fluids and three-quarter tank of intercooler spray, to simulate a mid-session lap). Also, tyre pressures must be set to what you normally run on track (i.e. when hot), which for me was 39 psi front and 36 psi rear. Also remember to remove the spare tyre, jack, rear seats and soft toys (if you have the habit of doing so during track days), and setup any in-car video recording equipment that you typically use. And of course, the driver should be in the car during the weighing, with helmet (and full-body fire-proof racing suit and underwear if applicable). If your car has adjustable anti-roll bar end-links, these should be disconnected before weighing to eliminate any possible suspension preload. As you can see, I positioned the control unit so as to be able to check the readings from inside the car. Having weighed the car, you will now need to jack the car up, remove the wheels, and make adjustments to the coilover heights.

09JackingFront.jpg
10JackingRear.jpg
11LoosenLugNuts.jpg
12WheelsRemoved.jpg


Before going further, it is useful to note that weight cannot be shifted between the front and rear, or left and right. To shift weight in this manner requires actual physical movement of weights in the car, such as relocation of the battery or the use of ballasts (read: a hefty ICE setup), etc. Any workshop that tells you otherwise is completely ignorant. On the other hand, corner weighting re-distributes diagonal weights. The theory behind this is that lowering the coilover spring perch at any one corner (this will typically result in lowering the ride height, but a distinction in moving the spring perch versus altering ride height should be made, and you’ll see why later) will decrease the load on that particular corner and its diagonally opposite corner, while at the same time increasing the load on the other two other corners, and vice versa. Overall front-to-rear and left-to-right weight bias does not change from corner weighting, I repeat. So if you’re driving a Subaru Impreza, and you want a 50-50 front-to-rear weight ratio, you will need a really really hefty ICE system in your boot, otherwise you’re stuck with 60-40, sorry.

The typical analogy used to explain the phenomenon that is corner weighting is that of a four-legged table. If one of the legs was trimmed such that it is slightly shorter than the other three legs, the table will be prone to wobbling. The manner in which the table wobbles is the key to understanding corner weighting. When the table wobbles, it is the shorter leg and its diagonally opposite leg that tend to fluctuate between lifting off and landing back on the ground. The other two legs tend to remain firmly planted while the table wobbles. This demonstrates that the load resting on the shorter leg and its diagonally opposite leg has decreased. This is a logical argument given that if any leg is off the ground, it is not carrying any load. This also means that the load on the other two legs has now increased, since the weight of the table top resting on the four legs is a constant. The conclusion from this example is that, the longer table legs carry a heavier share of the load, while the shorter table legs carry a lighter share of the load. When applying this concept to a car’s suspension, it implies that raising the spring perch height at any one corner will increase the load on that particular corner and its diagonally opposite corner, while decreasing the load on the two other corners, and vice versa.

Once this concept is understood and applied, corner weighting is a relatively straightforward process. Don’t believe everything the workshops say when they tell you that it’s a complicated process and you cannot hope to achieve equal ride heights. The fact is, you can achieve your target ride heights during corner weighting as well, it just takes a little more effort. Just to quote an example, if the RL + FR corners are overweight, you will need to lower either the RL or FR, or raise the RR or FL, or all of the above, in order to shift some of the excess weight to the RR + FL corners. However, you find that the ride height at the FR is already slightly lower than the FL, especially with the driver in the car, and you in fact wish to raise it a little to make it even with the FL. Other than the FR corner, you don’t wish to change the overall ride height by too much. One possible solution to this conundrum is to lower the RL corner, and combine that with raising the FL and the RR corners. This combination of adjustments should reduce the load on the RL + FR corners and increase the load on the RR + FL corners, which is what you want. But what about the ride heights? Firstly, raising both the RR and FL corners will also raise the ride heights on the RL and FR corners (unless your chassis is as soft as a wet noodle). Secondly, lowering the RL corner will actually have the side-effect of raising the ride height on the FR corner (think of a see-saw with the RR and FL corners acting as the fulcrum). The net result is that you actually end up with a lighter FR corner, while actually raising its ride height! Of course, in reality there will be some chassis flex in play but the impact is minimal. The possibilities are virtually endless, and any workshop that claims that corner weighting will always give you uneven ride heights are probably just too lazy to take the time to make the correct adjustments at the correct corners (unless your chassis is bent out of specification). Indeed, a perfect 50% cross weight can be achieved by making a large adjustment to just one corner, which might be a fast and easy approach, but would probably screw up your ride heights.


13Measurement.jpg
14Adjustment.jpg
15ScrewLugNuts.jpg
16TightenLugNuts.jpg


Once the adjustments have been made, mount the wheels and lower the car down. I strongly suggest tightening the lug nuts by hand first, followed by a torque wrench at approximately 100 Nm of force. This ensures that all 5 wheel studs are evenly stretched, preventing the brake rotor from warping. Remember to shake the car vigorously to release any suspension binding before weighing it again. Or you could go for a leisurely drive around the neighbourhood, if you prefer. Once done, put the car on the scales and check the weights. Make further adjustments as necessary and repeat until you get as close to 50% cross weight as possible. It should not take long once you get the hang of how corner weights change in proportion to a change in coilover length. The proportion of change depends on the stiffness of your springs. For any given adjustment, the stiffer the springs, the greater the change in weight. Once you’re happy with your corner weights, adjust the anti-roll bar end-link lengths (if you have adjustable end-links) so that you can re-attach the anti-roll bar without any twisting and tensioning. Finally, remember to release the excess tyre pressure or they might result in over-inflation once your tyres heat up from normal driving. Unless the corner weighting process resulted in a significant change in ride heights (which as explained above need not be the case), chances are you will not need to get your wheel alignment checked. The trick here is to set your desired ride heights first, get the car aligned, then corner weight it. With a proper, methodological approach and patience, your ride heights should not vary significantly after corner weighting.

Hopefully, this post may serve to shed more light on corner weighting and its theory and application.
 
Re: Corner weighting

PS: Apologies for the unsolicited advertisement for IKEA. It was completely unintentional!
 
Re: Corner weighting

Yay for informative posts! Hope this trend continues in 2011 and beyond :D
 
Re: Corner weighting

This is very cool. I'm going to move this to the Track folder and sticky it shortly. Thanks for the insight!
 
Re: Corner weighting

Shaun;602352 said:
Yay for informative posts! Hope this trend continues in 2011 and beyond :D

Hey Shaun, I've heard lots about you from Ryan, hope to get some pointers from you at the next trackday!
 
Re: Corner weighting

...I like this man..I really really like this piece of information. though must say it's pretty heavy stuff for a female to read..
..Ryan, yes please, pls..stick in track folder..damn cool ..tks for information, dude..

...hope more to come...
 
Re: Corner weighting

Gerald81;602357 said:
Hey Shaun, I've heard lots about you from Ryan, hope to get some pointers from you at the next trackday!

Hi Gerald,
Uh oh.. good stuff I hope..
See you at the track

===

Great DIY article! Did you buy those scales or rent them from a garage?
There have been a few good DIY upgrade and repair how tos posted on this forum before, but none track related like yours. Where are all the BMW track guys and their ultimate driving machines? :D


To add:

1) The binding forces in the system cannot be overcome by bouncing the car on the spot. Usually it takes a roll of about 20" in both directions, or multiple smaller roundtrips, to remove the scrub forces. Rolling requires platforms of sufficient length before of after each scale. There are also lateral scrub plates that ride on bearings that eliminate the need for rolling (but not bouncing). You just zero the scales with the plates on top. The cheap and ugly version (but highly effective still) is to use two thick sheets of plastic over every scale with just a couple drops of oil in between. The roll and bounce and scrub sheet methods both increase the requirement for the making the scale-plane not just flat, but also truly horizontal. This is especially so with full weight roadcars that are more difficult to muscle around on the scales.

2) The chassis, bushes, spring, and tire are effectively springs in series so the load shift to ride height change ratio will vary based on all 4. It can be assumed to be fairly soft on road cars, but for people that go pretty hardcore with solid bushes, crazy springs, etc it can get quite sensitive. The sensitivity will be evident in the first couple of changes and from there one can figure out how precise he needs to be.

3) How much alignment changes for a rideheight change will depend on kinematics. The process at first is iterative with the car going back between the scales and alignment a few times. Subsequent setups go much quicker once in the ballpark and rake or rideheight doesn't need a big change and when the geometry change for a given travel in that part of the arc is already known. Usually for a road car the way it usually goes is weight-align-weight at a minimum, the first time.

4) While the 50% crossweight rule often is a target, is shouldn't always be one. There are 3 schools of thought on cross weight for 'symmetric' circuits. Only 2 are really used in upper level racing internationally - and neither actually have anything to do with a 50% cross as a target. 50% cross only happens to be a target, if the lateral (fixed by mass placement as you wrote earlier) is 50%. In such a case, the target for all 3 methods just happens to work out to the same 50%. The difference between methods shows up the further away from 50% the lateral mass distribution is. The further away from 50% the lateral is, the further away from 50% the target cross becomes. Most roadcars, come with lateral mass distributions that are not symmetrical. Racecars are sometimes intentionally set up to be asymmetric in lateral mass distribution and/or alignment.

I won't give away which methods are used or which is better in what cases, but I'll give some example numbers and final target corner weights and you can have fun working it out yourself from there, testing each method on your own car and seeing how you like it. Then we can compare notes :)



The example car before corner weighting:
FL 450
FR 400
RL 290
RR 300


Briefly, the different targets of each of the 3 methods are:

a) 50% cross for symmetrical handling but inherently inducing chassis torsion which has an influence on handling symmetry which was the supposed target to start with. Finishing at -
FL 435
FR 415
RL 305
RR 285

b) 50% FR and FL for optimal braking or acceleration.. Depending on circuit layout and how hard the vehicle decelerates and accelerates (how imbalanced it gets and for how long), how difficult it is to drive quick when the rear steps out, presence of electronics aids, there are varying degrees between this and the other methods. 50% RR and RL might also be a target depending on circui and vehicle layout. 50% FR and FL finishing at -
FL 425
FR 425
RL 315
RR 275

c) Chassis completely torsion free but wheel loads are neither longitudinally, laterally, or diagonally symmetrical.
FL 437
FR 413
RL 303
RR 287


Cheers mate
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Corner weighting

The example car has only 1.4% asymmetry in terms of lateral weight distribution, so the difference between (a) and (c) is small. Increase the asymmetry to 4% or more (easily and commonly enough done in real life) and the difference between methods grows.
 
Re: Corner weighting

Gerald81;602357 said:
Hey Shaun, I've heard lots about you from Ryan, hope to get some pointers from you at the next trackday!

Hi Gerald,
Uh oh.. good stuff I hope..
See you at the track

===

Great DIY article! Did you buy those scales or rent them from a garage?
There have been a few good DIY upgrade and repair how tos posted on this forum before, but none track related like yours. Where are all the BMW track guys and their ultimate driving machines? :D


To add:

1) The binding forces in the system cannot be overcome by bouncing the car on the spot. Usually it takes a roll of about 15" in both directions, or multiple smaller roundtrips, to remove the scrub forces. Rolling requires platforms of sufficient length before of after each scale. There are also lateral scrub plates that ride on bearings that eliminate the need for rolling (but not bouncing). You just zero the scales with the plates on top. The cheap and ugly version (but highly effective still) is to use two thick sheets of plastic over every scale with just a couple dabs of grease in between. The roll and bounce and scrub sheet methods both increase the requirement for the making the scale-plane not just flat, but also truly horizontal. This is especially so with full weight roadcars that are more difficult to muscle around on the scales.

2) The chassis, certain bushes, spring, and tire are effectively springs in series so the load shift to ride height change ratio will vary based on all 4. It can be assumed to be fairly soft on road cars, but for people that go pretty hardcore with solid bushes, crazy springs, etc it can get quite sensitive. The sensitivity will be evident in the first couple of changes and from there one can figure out how precise he needs to be.

3) How much alignment changes for a rideheight change will depend on kinematics. The process at first is iterative with the car going back between the scales and alignment a few times. Subsequent setups go much quicker once in the ballpark and rake or rideheight doesn't need a big change and when the geometry change for a given travel in that part of the arc is already known. Usually for a road car the way it usually goes is weight-align-weight at a minimum, the first time.

4) While the 50% crossweight rule often is a target, it shouldn't always be one. There are 3 schools of thought on cross weight for circuits that are 'symmetrical' in nature. Only 2 are used in upper level racing internationally - and neither actually have anything to do with a 50% cross as a target. 50% cross only happens to be a target, if there is at least one axis of symmetry (either a longitudinal or lateral) for the total mass. If there is one, the target for 2 of the 3 methods just happens to work out to the same 50%. If there is no axis of symmetry, the 3 methods will yield 3 different targets. The difference between methods shows up the greater the asymmetry is on both long. and lat. axes. Just about all cars are asymmetrical in this way (mass distribution), and many trackcars and racecars are purposely set up that way to optimize for a specific circuit.

A shorter way of expressing it with percentages:

50% front, 48% left car will mean 2/3 methods have the same target
50% front, 50% left car will mean 3/3 methods have the same target
48% front, 50% left car will mean 2/3 methods have the same target
48% front, 48% left car will mean 3/3 methods have different targets

Not giving away which methods are used or which is better in what cases, but here are some example numbers and final target corner weights. You can have fun working it out yourself from there, testing each method on your own car and seeing how you like it. Then we can compare notes :)

The example car before corner weighting:
FL 450
FR 400
RL 290
RR 300

Briefly, the different targets of each of the 3 methods are:

a) 50% cross for symmetrical handling but inherently inducing chassis torsion which has an influence on handling symmetry - the supposed target to start with. Finishing at -
FL 435
FR 415
RL 305
RR 285

b) 50% FR and FL ( or RR, RL) for optimal braking or acceleration.. Depending on circuit layout and how hard the vehicle decelerates and accelerates (how imbalanced it gets and for how long, and where), how difficult it is to catch, presence of electronics aids, there are varying degrees between this and the other methods. 50% RR and RL might also be a target depending on circuit and vehicle layout and spec. 50% FR and FL finishing at -
FL 425
FR 425
RL 315
RR 275

c) Chassis completely torsion free but wheel loads neither longitudinally, laterally, nor diagonally symmetric.
FL 437
FR 413
RL 303
RR 287

The example car has only 1.4% asymmetry in terms of lateral mass distribution, so the difference between (a) and (c) is small. Increase the asymmetry to 4% or more (easily and commonly enough done in real life) and the difference between methods grows. Larger F:R asymmetries are common too.


Cheers mate
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Corner weighting

cool man. lots of efforts u both typing . Thanks 4 great insight..
 
Re: Corner weighting

great article! now i just need to have some time to slowly read and understand fully every single point.

one question, issit neccessary to remove the swaybars before doing the alightment?
 
Re: Corner weighting

Shaun, don't worry it was all good, haha..

Those scales are mine, I bought them as I didn't like the idea of paying a shop upwards of $300~$500 for a session especially when they keep telling me it's impossible to realise a 50% cross weight on a road car, and that my ride heights will definitely be uneven. So I thought why not invest in a set, I just need to setup my car (and my brother's) a couple of times and it'd be worth it, plus I enjoy working on the car myself and learning more about it. Unfortunately, they've spent the best part of a year collecting dust in the storeroom as I haven't gone for any trackdays in awhile :(

Anyway, thanks for the insights, I must disclaim that all I've written is based on my own research and my experience (which isn't much), so it's great to get pointers from technical gurus such as yourself.

From what I've read, the general idea is to hit 50% cross weight for predictable and symmetrical handling, but you've got a good point in that chassis flex can also affect handling. I suppose some drivers may also prefer an asymmetrical setup to sacrifice certain corners for others that may yield a faster laptime overall, depending on the track layout. Taking Sepang for example, because it has a clockwise layout, I'm thinking that some drivers may prefer sharper turn-in for right turns compared to left turns. However, one could also argue that when analysing the track, quite a number of right hand corners are slightly banked, such as T7, T8, T11, and T14. Also, T3 is typically taken flat out. Therefore, the need to prioritise right hand turns may not be so pressing. On the other hand, there are some off-camber left hand corners such as T5, T9 and T12, where the car may tend to push wide. Also, a driver may strategise to execute T15 at a higher speed and with a good exit so as to hit a higher top speed down the pit straight to set himself up for overtaking manoeuvres during a race. Based on these factors, a driver may go against conventional wisdom and prefer sharper left turn characteristics on a clockwise track. Well these are just my thoughts and I could be completely wrong (probably am, haha), so please do share more insights.

One surprising (but pleasant) by-product of setting my car up with a 50% cross weight was that I actually felt that ride comfort was noticeably improved. I would have thought it was purely psychological, except that someone else whom I helped to corner weight also experienced the exact same thing. And I only told him about my own experience AFTER he mentioned it to me, and he said his wife felt it as well.

Also, before I corner weighted my car (and before I knew about corner weighting), I noticed that, given the same coilover thread height on the front left and right, my front right sat a bit lower. So I tried to obtain even ride heights by raising my front right corner higher and higher, and it took a disproportionately longer coilover thread length on the right just to get it to sit at the same height as the left. It was only after I learned about corner weighting and weighed the four corners that I realised I was screwing up my cross weights. So I lowered the height at the rear left corner, which eased weight off the rear left AND front right, as well as helped raise the ride height at front right corner, which was just what I needed. This revelation inspired me to share my experience with fellow forumers, because I know several enthusiasts like myself may go out and buy expensive coilovers without really knowing what to do with them.

dcs2k;602773 said:
great article! now i just need to have some time to slowly read and understand fully every single point.

one question, issit neccessary to remove the swaybars before doing the alightment?

From what I've heard, swaybars can sometimes introduce preload to the suspension even at rest, so it's best to disconnect the end-links when weighing the car (but don't remove the swaybars completely because they contribute to the vehicle's weight as well!), and once the corner weights are done, use adjustable-length end-links to reconnect the swaybars to ensure that any preload is eliminated or minimised at least.
 
Re: Corner weighting

didn't like the idea of paying a shop upwards of $300~$500 for a session especially when they keep telling me it's impossible to realise a 50% cross weight on a road car, and that my ride heights will definitely be uneven.
It's really cool that you guys are that serious as enthusiasts.:) Yeah there are a lot of incompetent people who talk rubbish.. from your height example, to brakes, tires, suspension, engine hardware, tuning, etc. I have some killer examples to share just that I haven't had time to write.

Regarding asymmetrical setups; to develop a properly optimized one for specific track, requires either a lot of time and money testing with an excellent driver, and/or quite a bit of time spent on a good DOE and in high quality simulation. And in the end it still takes a good and focused driver to really gain from the setup, especially if the setup is aggressively asymmetric for maximum benefit and not mild to the point that other variables overshadow the changes by an order of magnitude. If a driver is 0.25% or more off on best 3-lap-repeatable laptime ( nearly 0.4 seconds on a 2:30 lap) and/or inconsistent on any longer stint, then he shouldn't even be thinking of asymmetric setups. With any part of the 3 missing (proper simulation, proper testing, very good driver), it is too easy to get completely misled. As to how to determine how far off a driver is, that's a whole other thread.

There have been drivers here around 3% off on laptime (which can be caused only by missing the driving fundamentals), who were misled by workshops and friends into messing around with asymmetric alignments, tweaking it every trackday based on inaccurate feel, assumptions, with no physical measurement at the track, no data. On top of that tweaking the dampers and rake constantly.. ending up wasting lots of time and money, constantly blaming the car for the times. While it would be interesting to discuss the minutiae of developing a proper asymmetric setup and how it integrates with the tactical and strategic elements in racing, it would not be practical for enthusiasts for cost and driver-quality reasons.

The same might be said about corner weighting, but the difference is that while asymmetric alignment is looking for speed, corner weighting is only looking for stability or predictability. It is a necessary process to run after installing any ride height adjustable component to be a stable foundation for learning the basics of sport driving. Corner weighting is also many times cheaper and more straight forward vs developing a proper asymmetric setup. In the case of stock cars that are not ride height adjustable, we live with what the manufacturer has given us, which is probably a lot better than some aftermarket stuff just slapped on by some local garage just eyeballing it.

For all enthusiast drivers, the truth that should be applied 99.99% of the time (but almost never is) is to forget power, forget super sticky tires, etc. and to just sort out hardware for of all oil and water temperatures and pressures, get braking repeatable, alignment and weight in the ballpark - symmetrical and normal. Lock this very normal and repeatable setup down down and then go out and start to do 5 - 10 lap stints, and a lot of them. Unless within 0.5% of best real laptime with electronics off, just keep practicing and working on the driving until it is there, even if it takes 10 trackdays. Before the first trackday and in between all subsequent trackdays, read authoritative driving books and think. Study whatever data you can collect and confirm the concepts you've read about so you remember them. When the driver finally gets to the ballpark times, he'll know what he wants the car to do dynamically and the low and high limits in different areas. He will have a much better idea on what to get, how to set it up, how to test if it's really doing what he needs it to.

===

I think Daniel (dcs2k) was referring to alignment, in which case there is no need to disconnect the bars.
For weighting he would have to disconnect the bars.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Corner weighting

shaun...very tough to digest. 3% of 2min 30sec is 4.5seconds. if a driver drives laps in that kind of variance. i think he shud forget about corner weightings or any other mods. he has other things to sort out like his consistency. n driving.
also how many cars can be consistent in a 5-10 lap stints?


so my question is...assuming a consistent enuf driver....doing corner weightings. how much time r we trying to shave here?
 
Re: Corner weighting

totoseow;602991 said:
shaun...very tough to digest. 3% of 2min 30sec is 4.5seconds. if a driver drives laps in that kind of variance. i think he shud forget about corner weightings or any other mods. he has other things to sort out like his consistency. n driving.

Yes, but the 3% was off from target laptime, not on variance. In terms of variance given a largely fade free vehicle it should be +/- 0.2% given clear laps. Even if the vehicle is subject to fade as most full weight high power road ars are, it is still very easy to compare 5 - 10 lap averages to a reference driver and laptime degradation over an extended stint.

So within 0.25% of best 3-lap repeatable laptime (not one offs that kill the tires), and +/- 0.2% in terms of variance, carried over a longer stint.

also how many cars can be consistent in a 5-10 lap stints?
Few roadcars stock , but most can be made to do so in terms of everything except the tires. The driver will have to manage tires. Everything else can be made to take it if the drivers would just stop throwing money at power and trick suspension, carbon whatever, trick intakes and exhausts, and put it towards extra and/or better quality coolers, plumbing, ducts, shrouds. The car can actually become pretty fade free.

so my question is...assuming a consistent enuf driver....doing corner weightings. how much time r we trying to shave here?
Depends on how far off the car was to start, but I would say fairly little somewhere around 0.25%, but if the driver is quick and consistent and time matters to him, then 0.25% close to the boundary is worth a lot. The closer to the laptime asymptote, the greater the value of every tenth. The driver needs to be quick and consistent to really see a gain from it and not have it hidden by the driving variable which can easily overlap the weighting gain by multiples.

The other thing about baseline setups like weighting, alignment, is just to get it sorted and know for sure it is not those issues when you think you feel something is wrong or you just don't know why the times are a certain way. It is also to eliminate stackups like if I decided to do a rough alignment and then a rough weighting and roughly set up my shocks, and roughly estimated my aero, etc. Each might only be worth a little time but it would all show in the time. If it is straightforward and not too expensive to sort out, I would just do it. It's not necessarily about spending on new hardware, but just setting up what you already have to better efficiency.

===

On the topic of fade and consistency - please excuse me, but it is a major reason why karting is so great. Given a clear track, any variance in the last 15 laps of a 20 lap stint is purely due to driver inconsistency. The kart just doesn't fade significantly in any way once settled into temperature. Let's go! :thumbsup:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Corner weighting

Also consider what happens if the suspension coordinates and/or spring rates (most would be surprised) hence corner heights are far off enough on the car to require some fairly large height changes at the perch in order to get proper corner weights.

If the damper that does not have its length separately adjustable from where the shaft sits at rest, now the points of limit travel in both bump and droop are different in right and left turns.. asymmetric..and can mean huge and sudden changes in relative roll stiffness (hence handling) if the previous setup ended up close to bumpstops or droop limit across the lap. This is one reason why inboard dampers activated by adjustable push/pull rods is preferred. With outboard dampers, as most all roadcars run, it can be useful to have a separate height adjuster other than the lower spring perch which changes proportion of bump and droop travel.

The shorter the total travel, and closer to bump or droop limit a car runs, the more important it is to have adjusters that allow you to set exact damper shaft position start point independent of height. On spring-perch-only ride height adjuster outboard dampers, the multi-negative of low quality springs is clear. Unequal spring rates especially if paired diagonally = more perch adjustment on other diagonal = asymmetric roll stiffness = near equal wheel load but at differing spring rate

Even in the case of dampers with independent height to preload adjustment, poor quality springs mean uneven preload as commonly set by installed length or number of turns on perch from initial contact of the spring's free length.

==

While this is interesting and fairly inexpensive to do, it is generally overkill for road cars and lower tier racing, in fact most lower level race teams don't do it because they're constantly busy sorting other more basic issues. It's just that while on this topic there's no harm going one step further conceptually... same as with driving or tuning concepts.

So anyway the summary is it's interesting to check any chassis with two pairs of exactly equal length (adjustable) completely solid struts installed at the nominal shock lengths F and R (each length symmetrical left to right) in place of the coilovers and check the corner weight which will show roughly how accurately the chassis was made. In a secondary test with these struts, you could induce a height change at one corner and the delta in cross will give you an indication of how torsionally stiff the chassis is. These struts can be designed to be installed on all cars with a simple and modular adapter system. Tires can be taken out of the equation by running solid wheels or plates with a flat edge.

Also spring ratings should not be trusted but tested independently. Tested when new and periodically after that to check for changes in rate and/or length. The very best springs can have rate and length changes of around 5% after a season of hard running although unintended. You can only imagine how bad it would get with lower quality springs that manufacturers say are designed to even settle in at lower free heights...degree of which is large enough to just visually confirm. If a set of springs is not (or no longer) matched close on rate, then they should be matched to where the diagonal cross of their rates is as equal as possible.
 
Re: Corner weighting

ey who unstickied this awesome thread? :)
 
Re: Corner weighting

Hi Shaun,

Great stuff, I just posted on this in the suspension folder only to find your thread here ( makes more sense for it to be in suspension folder IMHO)

Qn: Where in SG can I find a workshop that knows how to do a proper coilover install, set rebound, compression...etc and have it corner weighted?

Pls feel free to PM me in private if it's not convenient to post publicly.

Cheers
 
Re: Corner weighting

ClemZ;676182 said:
Hi Shaun,

Great stuff, I just posted on this in the suspension folder only to find your thread here ( makes more sense for it to be in suspension folder IMHO)

Hi Clemz, while it is a process carried out on the suspension system, I suppose the reason it was started in the track section is because the process can only be fully appreciated on track. On public roads, just about all driving is under limit and on rails....and if it's not it's only only a matter of time before the driver ends up maimed, dead, or in jail.

Still it is good to get a symmetrical handling base even when the drive may not feel it. Same for alignment, damping, brake bias, etc. Without knowing how good the base is, the driver always wonders where he is as driver, where the car is, or what could have been on the whole.

Qn: Where in SG can I find a workshop that knows how to do a proper coilover install, set rebound, compression...etc and have it corner weighted?

Pls feel free to PM me in private if it's not convenient to post publicly.

Cheers
I'll be back in SG in a couple of days and will write more, but for now the short answer is that there is no one stop location currently (this may change in the near future :D). Damper optimization is also separate from corner weighting and alignment. It just happens that usually it's a good time to check on it (depending on damper design) while the car is up in the air, wheels off, etc.

Damper optimization can hardly be done at all in a garage. Needs track testing to optimize handling, or road testing for ride optimization. Or a mix of both depending on how the car will be used. And it's not just feel, but data acquisition involving a range of sensors, a fair bit of post processing, etc.

For corner weighting and alignment in SG, I've worked with 2 service providers who are willing to put ego and blind repetition aside and actually think, take a macro view on targets and circumstances before going off course on micro. They're able to do this because of true passion for motorsport.

There are others besides these 2 who would be capable of doing it, but they don't have the equipment or they are busy focusing on pushing products that make more money off the masses. Many big name garages have the equipment but don't know how to use it properly, or are too proud to ask for help or even admit the possibility that they're not using the hardware at full efficiency. Worse still is talking rubbish (magic talk) and actually applying it to cars, getting drivers more lost than when they started out.

I'll PM you more info when I get back. It's actually coincidental that right after returning I have a session overseeing set up corner weighting for an already class winning car that immediately after its first corner weight found another 0.5 sec on an already close to limit laptime, to set a new best. This is data backed and not an empty claim. Car's had some changes made since and they second corner weight is just to check it and return it if necessary. If we can coordinate, it works well because the equipment will all be set up anyway. More efficient, lower costs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Latest posts

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
82,758
Messages
1,019,360
Members
78,670
Latest member
oxbett2com

Latest posts

Back
Top