New Honda Civic Type R (JA) ~ On sale this Friday ~

[xiaoshun]

Advertise clip

[Shaun]

Point to add is that in any race series where the rules allow for both FI and NA engines, the FI engines always have to be handicapped by smaller air restrictors or smaller internal displacements in order to allow parity.

In racing series' that have max. displacement rules in place, with no gearing limitations, competitors always run max. displacement. They could easily run less displacement, lower torque, and turn the engine higher to make equal power, but they don't. Why? The only exceptions I can come up with are Judd and their F1 based engines that are slightly below limits because of F1 carryover and limits on stroke and because they are operating at much less than half nominal mechanical stress, they can afford to do it. Then again those are expensive engines relative to the rest of the LM field.

What are AER turbocharged engines so dominant in LMP2, why are large displacement high torque Corvette and Aston Martin engines strong in GT1? What about the FI high torque Audi R8s and R10s in LMP1? Overall vehicle and rule packages will not allow a pure engine to engine comparison, but the point is, high torque is not the enemy as some misguided or sellout engineers claim it is. If it were, you wouldn't see so much or any of it, and not just competing, but winning.

Decades ago till now, F1 engines always were and are right up against max allowable displacement. Why don't you currently see any 2.0L V8s turning 21,000 RPM and being competitive? When turbos were allowed in the 80s, all who were competitive ran them. Those who stayed NA were destroyed. What happened there?

High engine speeds are the result of trying to make as much power as possible from a fixed displacement. The only thing that fixes displacement is techinical regulation in racing. Street cars don't suffer limits except for tax penalties in some countries and that is a soft limit. People also form the idea that because many race cars especially F1 cars rev high, that it is a sign of true sportiness and that their street car should too. They don't realize they are handicapping themselves and paying unncessarily for power delivered that way. Many don't care either way because they only really want emotions fed and emotion does not care for logic. The thing that is really getting you off the corner and down the straight is power. Who cares about anything besides the engine not compromising vehicle dynamics any more than competitor units, and being fuel efficient?

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FWIW, I'm not pro-FI. Just defending FI from wrongful attack by supposed authority on the subject.

[Shaun]

I mean you can make a small displacement NA car really nice sounding, fast responding, decent accelerating, well balanced, a joy to drive on winding roads, etc. There is definitely a market for all that. But when it comes down to it, what are its laptimes, how long can it run them, and what does it cost? Compare that to similarly priced turbo cars.

[centurion]

Shaun, you really hit the nail on the glans penis (picked that up from my ex room-mate)! You are definitely having me in your forum fan club.

You broached a subject that I wanted to discuss for quite a long time and just couldn't find the words to crystallize - the subject in abstract `What's Honda doing????'

In 2 major roundups done recently, just after the Honda Type R was released, the results data were the same, but the EDITORIAL content was different.

Data-wise: Top Gear and EVO magazine - Honda Civic Type R was significantly compared to all the competitor, all turbocharged, like Vauxhall, Ford Focus RS, Golf GTI, Mazda 3 turbo, etc.

editorial wise:

Top Gear - The stig loved the Civic Type R, for its sound, its chuckability, its balance, roadholding, perfect brakes, everything, hated almost every other car save the VW GTI and the Focus RS. EVEN THOUGH the CTR was slow.

Evo - they thought the Civic was a step down from the previous one though they tested in the wet. They put aside their personal opinions in favour of track times.

And that's the crux of the matter. Horsepower and track times - utterly overrated unless you're going to buy the car JUST for the track. I tend to agree with the STIG here, he prioritized nice feel, balanced controls, nice sound, nice looking, and he would take the CTR home. The Evo track junkies prioritized the track times, and more power to them if they spent all their time on the track.

I now am concerned whether Honda will keep its stance to make a nice driving machines as opposed to fast track timing machines which drive atrociously. From all this, seems that FAST TRACK CARS are not necessarily nice to drive, and nice to drive cars are not necessarily super fast.

But things keep getting confused now. Look at the Cayman columns, there are a bunch of people there who keep on trying to justify and pretend that they can beat the 350Z or a modified Evo. They keep on trying to mod their cars with rock hard suspensions, mod exhausts to up the power at the expense of the balance so hard won by the engineers. And they at the same post talk about driveability etc.

Same for the BMW forums, where the really nice 3.0SI Z4 coupe is eschewed in favour of the Z4M Coupe, even though it is so well documented that the Z4M Coupe is utterly overpowered for its chassis settings.

For too long, we've been given cars whose engines have overpowered their chassis.... now even worse. Unless the buying public gets the difference between `the joy of driving' and `good times on track' it will continue.

[Shaun]

When it is written that a chassis is overpowered, what exactly is mentioned? Is there any more detail at all? I suspect they are confusing a few things, but the explanation as to why is a bit long so I’d prefer to confirm things first before writing further.

[centurion]

When I casually mentioned that a certain chassis is overpowered, perhaps TOO casually, I usually mean to say that the speed which is too easily achieved by the car in a straight line is difficult to handle given a slightly aggressive driving behaviour.

By that yardstick, the extreme example is like the Estima 3.5 which has incredible ability to build speed over very short distances and in braking whether in a straight line or the corner, the suspension, brakes and chassis setup all conspire to give you extreme understeer, hard to brake, hard to feel the steering, rolling like a pig.

So when I read other people state `too much power for that chassis', I similarly think that they mean the same as I do.

[Shirlene Fan]

Hey BMW-SGs,

Booking on new Civic Type R is now on...this Friday...at Kah Motor.....6 Speed Manual...check out further details at www.honda.com.sg...

[xkrim3]

Originally Posted by Shaun

high torque is not the enemy as some misguided or sellout engineers claim it is. <snipped> High engine speeds are the result of trying to make as much power as possible from a fixed displacement. The only thing that fixes displacement is techinical regulation in racing.

allow me to ot a bit and cross over from another thread. so this means me and my buddy can build a tube frame and lup in a rb26dett, use it in a non-regulated time attack, or just have some fun round the track without killing ourselves? would it be obscenely expensive to sort out the handling/suspension bits for this setup? we are still toying with this idea

[foxfrc5]

I don't think I know a single track junkie who runs a stock vehicle. Heck, even guys with Elises get mods done almost straight away.... :-)

The EDM CTR seems like a good compromise for most folks who would use it for daily driving and the occasional track sortie. If anyone was to buy it solely for track use, surely it could be made more suitable with some tweaks?

[foxfrc5]

Originally Posted by caySman

So when I read other people state `too much power for that chassis', I similarly think that they mean the same as I do.

There's always talk about high powered Volvos having "too much power for that chassis" -- I think it started with the 850R back in the early 90s. I guess they mean the car has troubling delivering its power to the road, and scrambles for grip on straights and on the bends...?