E46 M3 CSL or E82 1 Series Coupe???

[centurion]

Originally Posted by centurion

FARK! TORSION BAR REAR????? DID YOU SAY - TORSION BAR???

but it's a multilink 5-link. we can even say that it's akin to a double wishbone.

[Mockngbrd]

torsion bar? ?

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Originally Posted by Crufty Dusty

So a 335 with parts that need to be changed is an "easy mod" whereas an Evo that changes injectors is considered "not as easy to mod"? I dunno about the 335 but it takes less than 30 minutes for a competent mechanic to swap injectors on an Evo. And that's being generous.

You don't have to change parts on Evos if you don't want to. Evos on standard injectors using pump gas have been running about 300 whp for decades. If you want to go higher than that then larger injectors are recommended because the last thing you want is a new engine when injectors are cheap insurance. An easy method to get around this problem is to run better better fuel or raise fuel pressure. We like to do things the proper way so we usually swap injectors instead.

You also have to understand that the fuel flow demand out of 4 cylinders is more than 6 to support a given HP figure, so there is usually some headroom for engines with more cylinders.

The use of turbos in whatever car is irrelevant IMO.

Everything is built to a budget. Yes, even the 335. It has been handicapped with rear torsion bar suspension so that it won't handle as well as the M3. So all this talk about "superiority" or whatever is just silly.

My 2 psi.

I am not really talking about how easy or difficult it is to remove the injectors on evos or rexes. What i am trying to say is that given a stock 335, for the power gains, there is less things that you possibly need to change. What i am actually really trying to say is given about 100hp increase like the 335i with a piggyback, most other makes require and i stress require, to change other things to allow the car to run without any problems. I also agree that with the inline 6 cylinders there is less fuel demand as opposed to the 4 cylinder. I hope you know where I am coming from. And i admit with no objections that a stock 335 will not handle as poised as an M3 also because there is no LSD on our cars. Everything is a compromise. Every car we buy today has compromises. Its really what you want at the end of the day. As long as you ackownledge the weaknesses in any car you buy, then you have an educated purchase because there is something really in a car that attracts individuals and some which detracts them away from it.

[The Mixmaster]

So, if you want a car that is more "performance oriented", is it better to buy (i) a used E46 M3 that is left stock, or (ii) a new 335i and then spend some money to mod it up?

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Originally Posted by The Mixmaster

So, if you want a car that is more "performance oriented", is it better to buy (i) a used E46 M3 that is left stock, or (ii) a new 335i and then spend some money to mod it up?

If stock is your best motto, go for the m3. You wont get a car as sorted out as the M3. The car is fun to drive, way more even than a modded 335 which would get you bored of straight line power after a while. Problem is can you get a good conditioned M3. If you can, i'd say take it.

[Crufty Dusty]

Looks like a torsion bar to me.

[Crufty Dusty]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I am not really talking about how easy or difficult it is to remove the injectors on evos or rexes. What i am trying to say is that given a stock 335, for the power gains, there is less things that you possibly need to change. What i am actually really trying to say is given about 100hp increase like the 335i with a piggyback, most other makes require and i stress require, to change other things to allow the car to run without any problems. I also agree that with the inline 6 cylinders there is less fuel demand as opposed to the 4 cylinder. I hope you know where I am coming from. And i admit with no objections that a stock 335 will not handle as poised as an M3 also because there is no LSD on our cars. Everything is a compromise. Every car we buy today has compromises. Its really what you want at the end of the day. As long as you ackownledge the weaknesses in any car you buy, then you have an educated purchase because there is something really in a car that attracts individuals and some which detracts them away from it.

I see where you're coming from and respectfully disagree. Because you are using the term "stock" very loosely... a piggyback ECU is not part of the stock hardware (i.e. it did not come with the car). You don't need a piggyback ECU on an Evo to get 100 bhp more than stock, and even then 100 bhp more out of an Evo is not news.

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Originally Posted by Crufty Dusty

I see where you're coming from and respectfully disagree. Because you are using the term "stock" very loosely... a piggyback ECU is not part of the stock hardware (i.e. it did not come with the car). You don't need a piggyback ECU on an Evo to get 100 bhp more than stock, and even then 100 bhp more out of an Evo is not news.

Perhaps you did not fully understand my post. Given a stock 335, and with an addition of just a piggyback, you are able to extract about 100 ponies. Stock meaning, the rest of the engine internals with stock config. I know you dont need a piggyback on an EVo to get 100hp. Its simple as a few mods. Hell changing turbos give you already around that given its tuned properly. What i am saying is that given a STOCK 335i with just a piggyback, you get 100 ponies.For those who dont want to touch anything else like exhaust or downpipes or even air intake for that matter. 100bhp out of an evo is definitely not news. Its a defacto enthusiast car. But really, how many stock internals do you have to change before you can really and reliably use the extra 100bhp? You have to involve changing more items that just even adding a piggyback for that matter. Thats what i am saying. I am not referring to the realiability of both the cars when i say reliably use 100hp. I mean to change items in tandem that would allow you to run that amount of power over an otherwise stock evo. What i am referring to the ease of modding the 335 which gives you a proven 100hp over stock config without touching anything else. Not even 1 other part of the car.

[Crufty Dusty]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Perhaps you did not fully understand my post. Given a stock 335, with just a piggyback, you are able to extract about 100 ponies. Stock meaning, the rest of the engine internals and stck config. I know you dont need a piggyback on an EVo to get 100hp. Its simple as a few mods. Hell changing turbos give you already around that given its tuned properly. What i am saying is that given a STOCK 335i with just a piggyback, you get 100 ponies.For those who dont want to touch anything else like exhaust or downpipes or even air intake for that matter. 100bhp out of an evo is definitely not news. Its a defacto enthusiast car. But really, how many stock internals do you have to change before you can really and reliably use the extra 100bhp? Thats what i am saying. I am not referring to the realiability of both cars but i am referring to the ease of modding the 335 which gives you a proven and reliable 100hp over stock config.

And I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying either... on the one hand you allow the 335 a piggyback to raise the power by 100 bhp yet you deny a street legal exhaust and intake with reflash on an Evo? How is that a fair comparison when the very definition of a piggyback is that it's not stock?

You do not need to change your cams, internals or the turbo to get 100 bhp more out of an Evo or to use it reliably. It is 4WD so no traction issues. The car and engine has been proven in rally and road course racing for years, so I don't see why the need to bring reliability into the discussion. A reasonable person would expect the newer car to prove its worth instead.

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Originally Posted by Crufty Dusty

And I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying either... on the one hand you allow the 335 a piggyback to raise the power by 100 bhp yet you deny a street legal exhaust and intake with reflash on an Evo? How is that a fair comparison when the very definition of a piggyback is that it's not stock?

You do not need to change your cams, internals or the turbo to get 100 bhp more out of an Evo or to use it reliably. It is 4WD so no traction issues. The car and engine has been proven in rally and road course racing for years, so I don't see why the need to bring reliability into the discussion. A reasonable person would expect the newer car to prove its worth instead.

I made myself clear when i used the term 'reliably'. Yes the newer cars indeed has to prove its worth. No question about that. Let me rephrase it since we are getting all tangled up.

1. The 335 ONLY requires a piggback to extract 100 ponies. Nothing else has to be changed or replaced to run it. How many items do you similarly need to change on the Evo retrospectively? All this refers to ease of modding. I am not in a debate on the extent of modding to give you the same power. To some changing 2 or more items is fine to get the power. To some, they would like to leave everything that is physically stock in the car and play with the ECU (Software side) for power.

2. The 335 do not hold traction well after an increase in power because it doesnt have the 4wd system like the EVOs which have been proven in rallies and road racing. To have 50hp less in an evo and 50hp more in a 335, I would rather have 50hp less and able to put down the power. Power is nothing without control.

In light of the points mentioned above, I clearly define that the 335 is a much easier car to modify for fast extraction of power without changing anything physically. Especially, for those who are not all out for max power but for a little oomph.